How to use debt to build your wealth (and avoid financial suicide)

Debt is a pretty polarising concept. Some people love it, and it lures them into a lifestyle they can’t afford. Others use it to accelerate their wealth. Others still avoid all forms of debt like the plague. In this episode, Ryan and Terry explore the various properties of debt and how the concept of debt interacts with our psychology and our circumstances.

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What you’ll learn

• The difference between painful debt and useful debt. 
• Why and how debt can be a magnifier in the short term and an accelerator in the long term
• The debt quadrant: a tool for making informed choices about debt.
•  The four principles of proper lending 

Links and resources

• ​Blog post: Debt is a double edged sword, here’s how to wield it to build your wealth.

View episode transcript

Ryan:  Ryan and Terry here. Of course. Now last episode, Terry with Chris Bates looked at. Some really different dimensions now with the property side of things. And there’s a couple of really good insights I took from that around not overextending ourselves and forcing ourselves into a life of misery where we sacrifice our life along the way for this big property or this big amount of debt that we need for it.

And then also the other way, not going too small and buying an asset that doesn’t have the potential to grow in value and a good quality asset. So that’s the, that was a really good place to head now that done a lot of work around the investing and the cashflow. And now to be thinking about that home decision as well or investment property

Terry: [00:01:15] potentially.

Yeah, super valuable discussion to have, and got a lot of great comments from our members and people that are listening as well. So what we wanted to do is just build off that and provide some practical tools and some mental models to use for how to make those decisions. Chris gave us some great tips around how he bought his home, but I guess what we wanted to do is add to that and think about what are some frameworks we can think into that can improve the way we filter the debt decision.

If you like. I think this is more important than ever as well, because. I don’t know if you know this, but Australia is the most indebted country in the world, particularly when it comes to hotlines, way more indebted than we’ve ever been in our history. And at the same time, it’s easier to get debt than ever before.

And knowing the difference between debt that can help you and debt that’s going to hinder you is just a very important thing to sort of understand. And the other thing is that amidst these changes being really indebted and making it very easy to get that is that. We’re living right now in a time of unprecedented economic uncertainty.

And when you think about a debt decision, that’s a decision right now that you will, I guess, live with for decades at times it could be 20, 30, 40 years. And so getting these decisions, right. Really thinking through them is really important. And I know that it’s probably brings up the idea that like, I just don’t have time to figure this stuff out.

I’ve got all these other things I’m trying to do. Just keep the lights on type thing, but really the real risk with debt is that you don’t know, take this seriously enough. You make huge mistakes and you’ll be paying for these ones for decades. And there’s some absolute horror stories where people are taking out these debts and  getting on the property ladder.

And then it’s things are going really wrong. We want to be avoiding that as much as possible.

And

Ryan: [00:02:56] there’s a good decision around debt, but there’s also a good decision for yourself. Isn’t there like as a financial element to it, but then there’s also thinking about yourself and what’s right for you. Yeah. And what you can, can handle.

Terry: [00:03:05] And I think there’s a real hurting sort of instinct too, with debt, particularly around the home loan and getting in the property market. If you like, there’s that language of get on the property ladder type thing, it’s just kind of, it leaves you with the image or the idea that you’re being left behind.

If you’re not saddled with this big home loan, you know, and so. I think it’s really important to able to separate yourself from that and really think about who you are, what you’re trying to achieve and what your life that you’re trying to build looks like. Because for some people that might involve no home loan for some others, it might involve a different type of loan.

You and I were talking about using the equity builder as a full savings mechanism to buy more shares and build our portfolios faster. You really got to think backwards from what you’re trying to achieve, rather than just  following the crowd. I think

Ryan: [00:03:47] that’s great. And. So much of the money that moves around now is actually in credit form.

I remember hearing a stat in America that 97% of the money that moves is actually credit. It’s not physical money. It’s ultimately become the currency that we use. Yeah. It’s credit. It’s still money, but it’s also credit behind it. So it is something that you want to be able to understand. I’m glad we’re going to break it down in this episode.

And, you know, I really understand what debt is and what that means and the different sides of debt. And also be thinking about how do we actually use it to build wealth, because the reality is people that achieve big things financially, they do use that. They use that to accelerate how long it takes for them to get to a, to B.

They use it to be able to buy assets that they couldn’t otherwise afford on their own. So it is something that. If you’ve got high ambition, when it comes to building wealth, it’s something you need to understand it and something you need to be able to use. And I guess

Terry: [00:04:43] the impetus for this episode was this blog that I wrote a long time ago, trying to understand that for myself, because my default position is I just don’t like it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would prefer to avoid it at all costs. And I feel like people are kind of one of two ways when it comes to debt, they’re either like me and you just say, all debt is bad. And that’s not really thinking about it, or you don’t really think about debt at all. And you just go into things, Willy nilly and you get yourself into a lot of trouble.

If you don’t get yourself in a lot of trouble, like Chris said, you lock yourself into a life that you actually really struggle with it. You make it really hard for yourself.

Ryan: [00:05:17] I think I’ll say this in couples we work with as well. You might have somebody that is really comfortable with it or not really phased by it.

And then you might have another partner that feels quite crippled by it. Like, it feels like a big weight to carry and sometimes the decision is made with a weighting towards the person that’s okay with it. And then the other partner has to try and live with it. End without sort of the understanding of it that white becomes greater, but the more that you can understand it and make sure that it is okay with you and you can handle it.

Okay. It kind of helps with the friction in that way. Yeah. And just

Terry: [00:05:49] again, like education always helps me knowing what the actual risk is, because if you don’t know what the risk is and you rely on how you feel about it and how you feel is not always correlated to the level of risky hiking. It’s more so about what you saw, what you heard, and that’s got nothing to do with the decision you’re facing right now, or the life you’re trying to live.

So it’s, yeah, it’s super important to be thinking, all right, in the here and now, what do I want, what the, why? I think , . So I think it’s really important to start with the fundamentals.

Like, let’s take it right back to the bare bones. What is debt?

Ryan: [00:06:16] Yeah. So I say debt as something that you’ve borrowed from somebody else, and you have an obligation to pay that back. And it comes with a consequence of having to pay interest, to borrow that money. Yeah.

Terry: [00:06:29] I always think about interest as rent.

Like you’re renting the money that you borrowed until you give it back basically. And I think that’s a nice way to reframe rent, money being dead money. And then that the home loan is a better decision, but actually you’re paying a lot of rent on the money that you borrowed until you pay it back, actually, in some cases, and in most cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars of rent.

And so that’s the way I  think about it. I’m renting the money from you until I give it back. And that rent, it comes with different terms and conditions. Doesn’t it? It depends on what type identities,

Ryan: [00:06:58] so different types of debt.

Terry: [00:06:59] Yeah. So let’s talk about the different types of debt. We’ve got consumer debt and we’ve got invested debt. How would you define consumer debt?

Ryan: [00:07:08] I would say consumer debt is money that you’ve borrowed to buy something that doesn’t help put money in your pocket. It’s not something that’s earning you an income and then invested that is borrowing money to buy something that does help put money in your pocket and also grow in value over time.

So like an obvious comparison of those two might be consumer debt, being a car loan to buy a car that is only going down in value over time as it gets older. And I actually have to pay for that car. Whereas invested that might be like the equity builder we’ve talked about, or like a margin loan or an investment loan to buy a property, something where money that you’ve borrowed to buy an asset that is going to help you earn extra income and should grow in value over time.

Yeah.

And I like to think about the difference between those two as almost like different types of relationships you can get into. So you get into it like a toxic relationship. That’s not making you a better person. It’s actually kind of ruining your life. That’s like the relationship with consumer debt, right?

Yeah. It’s like when I hang out with you, exactly,

Terry: [00:08:08] it’s baggage. It really drags you down. It makes you life a lot harder. It’s toxic. It’s not a nice relationship, whereas used correctly invested. That can be one of the best relationships you feel off. It can make you more of yourself. It can force you to become better because it gives you an obligation.

It gives you a like a healthy sense of pressure that helps your eyes to the occasion. And I think that’s why a lot of people talk about, the home loan in that sense where they’re saying it’s for savings in that way. We wouldn’t do it otherwise. Now we don’t consider the home loan to be invested debt.

And we’ll talk about why that is later on. But I think it’s important to know that the difference between those two consumer debt toxic relationship with somebody who’s really not good for you and invested it. If done the right way. And if you invest in that correctly can actually improve the quality of life.

It’s really important to know, because the reality is, like you said, there’s a consequence to debt and you want the consequences to be worth it. If I bought a liability, if I bought a big, shiny new car and I’m driving it around, the reality is the best it’s going to be is the day I drive it out of the lot.

That’s the best it’s ever going to be. And then after that, I’m dealing with that decision forever. And it’s going to take a nice, healthy chunk out of my cashflow, but I used to live with this guy and Sydney go, I got a job. I think I might’ve talked, talked about him in the past and he bought a new car that he just couldn’t afford.

Hadn’t done the math, hadn’t done the numbers. It’s really basic stuff. And he’s like saying to me, I can’t pay rent. I’m like, you can pay rent. You’re just choosing to pay for your car. You actually don’t need that car. And he’s like, yeah, I need the car. I’m like, you need them. That’s what she named. That was like a thousand dollars coming out of his paycheck straight away for this car.

So I think it’s really important to know that price has to be worth it. So if there is going to be a cashflow cost to you, improving things for you over the long haul, but if it’s not, then don’t do it. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:09:53] Yeah, you should always be to be, and the aim should always be to be buying something that actually gives you more income than what that cost is that consequence, the rewards should be greater than the consequence should always put more money in your pocket than what it’s taking out.

That should be the aim. And, you think about it from an investment standpoint, let’s say it’s a buying a property or it’s buying shares. Then the. Rental the dividends from that asset should be greater than the cost of interest on the loan people call that positively geared just to throw some technical jargon at you, but you want more money coming in the money going out.

Terry: [00:10:27] Okay. So let me play devil’s advocate. Cause I know there’s a lot of property people in there going, hang on, mate, hang on, hang on. There’s still invested it. If it’s negatively geared and it’s costing me money every year to keep this house, what would you say to that?

Ryan: [00:10:39] The focus should always be on the cashflow, the income first before the price, because if you’re making decisions based off the price or the value growing over time, then it’s quite speculative in nature.

Whereas when you making the decision about cashflow or income, then it’s more of an investment decision. Yeah. So the speculation versus investing makes me think about, I remember writing in a textbook that I was writing when I was doing my master’s degree. And in that it had the comment negatively gearing, which is when more money is going out, the money is coming in is a tax effective way to lose money.

And it’s funny, like there’s probably some accountants listening to this that might chuckle and might get offended, but usually accountants tend to mention negatively gearing is a good strategy because they have a tax boss. They’re thinking about it from that perspective, but it means that you have to have a greater consequence and reward over time and speculate on the price of, or the value of that asset going up, which is speculation.

Terry: [00:11:39] Yeah. So I think the key point there is that it’s not black and white this stuff, and you really just need to do your due diligence. Get really good advice. Really? Yeah. Do your homework and just remember, like income’s what powers everything you’re going to need your income to take over your human capital at some point.

And so you want to make sure that you’re always trying to grow that income. That’s our philosophy. That’s what we believe. And that’s why we kind of lean towards assets to provide more money.

Ryan: [00:12:01] Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also ties back to the episode eight, I think when we talked about the dimensions of risk as well, and we talked about concentration risk and if you’re using debt to buy one asset, for example, and is speculative in Nigeria, then the more concentrated is the more right you need to be.

So you need the best advice you need to really understand. The geography, the demographics, the things that are happening around that, as well as what needs to be true for the odds to be stacked in its favor in growing and value.

Terry: [00:12:30] And I think that’s why Chris was kind of talking about the virtues of getting good buyer’s advocate and getting good help in that area because he probably does understand, probably has seen that a lot.

And so. There’s another cost that you just not aware of when you’re making the call that, uh, you know, somebody could potentially save you from whatever help you can get, you should take and you should get, you should pay for at that point. Cause that’s where you do yourself in is when you buy the property.

It’s not necessarily when you’re selling it. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:12:54] Particularly when it’s your first time as well, because you don’t know where your blind spots are. You don’t know what you don’t know until you’ve had that experience. So you want to collapse the time and have somebody walk you through it. Somebody with those experiences.

Terry: [00:13:06] A few quick rules of thumb to help you figure out the difference between consumer debt, the toxic kind of relationship we’ll talk about before and invest the debt. So if it’s consumer debt, it’s not tax deductible, which means that the interest that you pay you can’t take it off your tax bill. Basically, the other thing is if it’s consumer debt, it’s generally pretty easy to get.

So if you’re finding you’re only a few clicks away from it, it’s probably not good debt. And usually it’s in smaller amounts. So it can be hundreds of thousands of dollars that you can get access to it, but it might be up to 20 K. Depending on your income. Sometimes even more, I got off offered a $40,000 from one phone call on Tom and I was like, Jesus.

So it’s pretty damn easy. They called you. Yeah, they are. They’re like, here’s your income. This is what we want to give you. How easy to, yeah, no, thanks. It says of consumer debt as well. There’s generally no restrictions on how you use it. They don’t really tell you how you have to spend the money. Whereas with investor debt, They don’t they say it’s only to be used for these

Ryan: [00:13:57] things.

Yeah. And they want you to use it as well when it’s consumer debt, because it’s a lot higher interest, usually it’s 12, 15, 20% interest on it. Yeah,

Terry: [00:14:07] that’s right. That’s the other point. It’s probably a higher interest rate. It’s probably above 15%. And whereas investor debt interest costs are tax deductible.

So you can take those off your tax bill and the government’s doing that. Cause I want to incentivize you to be investing. It’s all contributing to the economy, basically.

Ryan: [00:14:23] Yeah. And to earn an income. So basically for it to be tax deductible, like you said, to reduce how much you have to pay in tax, that needs to be, what’s called a nexus between that debt and earning an income.

That’s what makes it tax deductible. So it needs to be a link. Dad says this debt is actually helping me earn an income, justify that for you to get that tax deduction

Terry: [00:14:45] because the government does want you to be more self-reliant if they can, because that means you’re not relying on them. Yeah,

Ryan: [00:14:52] I just mentioned,

Terry: [00:14:53] so interest costs is going to be texted deductible where you can take over the tax.

Bill is probably going to be harder to get, if it’s invested, debt is probably going to be a few hoops for you to jump through. You’re going to be filling out a few forms, going to be providing probably a lot more information. And the other one is that usually the sums that you can get access to are a fair bit higher.

So it’s usually a $50,000 plus up into the hundreds of thousands. And then there’s really tight restrictions on how you can use the money. You have to use it. How you said you were going to use it from the stop. You can’t just go out and say, I’ll just go $300,000 home loan. Let’s go on a worldwide trip.

You can’t do that. And then the last one, it’s going to be lower interest rates. So it’s probably going to be sub 10%  right now the rates of record low is like 3%. Right?

Ryan: [00:15:33] Yep. And there’s also. And interesting parts there. So when you think about consumer debt underneath that, we’ve got things like the credit card.

We’ve got the personal loan, we’ve got the car loan. As you mentioned. So those fast deposit loans, and then on invested at we’ve got things like a margin

Terry: [00:15:50] loan or where, when you say margin loan, what do you mean by that?

Ryan: [00:15:54] The margin loan is a loan that you’d take out to buy a portfolio of shares, like an investment loan, which you would use to buy a property, for example.

And then you might also have something like the equity builder that we’ve talked about. So they’re really obvious ones helping you earn income. The other one’s just costing you basically. But then you’ve got another one that’s sort of sits in the middle a little bit. It’s more on the consumer debt side, but it’s very easy to see why people argue that it’s invested debt and that’s your home loan.

That’s your mortgage, the one to buy your home. It doesn’t help you earn an income unless you’re eBay and bang the backroom, but it also can grow in value. That’s something you want to pass in the middle. Isn’t it. And that’s why it’s a foggy one. I’d say it’s on the consumer debt side because of the income part of it.

It doesn’t have you own income. It’s only you paying the consequences. There’s no reward to it, except you get to obviously enjoy the space, but you can also see why it’s easier. Are you it’s on the investor debt side because it does grow in value over time. We hope anyway. So let’s

Terry: [00:16:53] say I bought this house that we’re in right now and it theoretically in parentheses grows in value over the next 10, 15 years.

And I sell it for an extra 200 grand when I sell out of it, all the houses around it are the same. So did it grow? Yeah.

Ryan: [00:17:07] It comes down to, are you going to downsize or upsize as well? So yes, it’s relative to what’s around it, but then it’s also, what’s your decision about what’s next?

Terry: [00:17:17] Yeah, that’s right. So if I’m thinking that I’m going to just get on the property ladder.

In parenthesis again, because I just have to get in and then I buy this property that theoretically went up in value and then I want to upgrade after that. Did I actually make any money?

Ryan: [00:17:30] Yeah. Good question. You didn’t make any money, but you might have afforded a better space.

Terry: [00:17:36] Yeah. So I can now sort of poli it and try it up into a place I couldn’t have otherwise afforded then haven’t necessarily made money when you talk about value.

Ryan: [00:17:44] Yeah, you’re right.

Terry: [00:17:44] It’s probably hard to get your head around, but it’s worth considering.

Ryan: [00:17:47] Yeah, you haven’t created any cash in the hands, but what you have created is equity. Which is the ability to borrow against your home, which we’re going to dive into in the next episode, which is how can you use the equity in your home to create wealth?

I mean, it’s something that’s really under utilized in Australia, so I’m pretty excited to dive into that, but yeah, you’re right. There’s nothing in there, you know, a hand you’re not growing it to sell it, to create a margin. Something where you’re probably going to upgrade. Eventually, at some point you may decide you’ve had kids, kids had moved out now you’re deciding to downsize and free up some cash.

Yeah. So then it becomes real. You can realize it. Yeah. Yeah. But for the most part, we’re probably going to upgrade a couple of things. Yeah. So

I think it’s just really important to where I kind of talking about differentiating between the two and good call out. So in terms of that, the Homeline being kind of foggy space in the middle, but let’s talk about the two sides investor debt, right?

Cause it’s not always good all the time is it can go the other way on you.

Yeah, well, it’s a great thing when things going well, but then everything has an equal and opposite reaction. And so when things aren’t going great and it can not be a good thing.

Terry: [00:18:49] And that’s why I called the blog debts, a double-edged sword.

Because on one side, it can protect you. It can help you get things you can otherwise want, not to being able to get. And on the other side, you can really chop off your hand. You can really hurt yourself. You can really hurt other people with my hands. So that’s why we say it’s super important to understand this thing.

Not just sort of go into it going, Oh, at least, I guess it’s this time in my life. And I guess it’s just time when I do this, really, you gotta get your head around it and understand what it is.

Ryan: [00:19:16] It also linking back to the dimensions of risks we talked about in episode eight, this also highlights that timeframe part.

So you’re talking about now, like in the short term, if something goes up by 10%, then you’ve created lots of value because you bought an asset that’s greater than what you otherwise would have had. If it goes down by 10%, then you have doubled that loss as well. So double gang doubled loss. Which is a snapshot in time.

The way you’re probably better off thinking about debt is over. Long-term like, you always want to have a long timeframe just because things move in cycles. So when you’re thinking about the debt in terms of a longer time frame, it’s an accelerant. Whereas when you’re thinking about it in terms of a shorter timeframe, so let’s say long-term is 20 years short term is one month.

Then it’s a magnifier. So an accelerant versus a magnifier.

Terry: [00:20:04] And what’s the difference between the two

Ryan: [00:20:06] sewing accelerant is let’s say it takes you 20 years to get from a to B. Using debt might mean that you get there in 16 years instead of 20. Whereas in the short term, in that month, 10% gain is doubled as a magnifier or a 10% loss is doubled.

Let’s

Terry: [00:20:24] take a real life example just to kind of make it a bit more concrete, right? So let’s say I save 10 K and then I’ll go to 90 K loan to buy an investment property worth a hundred K. So I put in 10, the bank put in 90. So let’s say the value of that property increased to 110 K after six months. Then it might a hundred percent return on my 10 K haven’t I, because I put in 10 and with now buy an extra 10 that’s a hundred percent return.

So when you say magnifier, that’s what you mean? Correct? 10 Ks, 20

Ryan: [00:20:50] K. Yep.

Terry: [00:20:51] But it cuts both ways because, so let’s say it goes yellow. Y and the value actually fell 10%. The a hundred K property is now worth 90 K. That means that the 10 grand that you saved. Gone. So that’s what we mean when we say it’s a magnifier and it cuts both ways as if it went up in the six months, look at you, you’re a legend.

You’re an absolute genius. He might a hundred percent gain on your money. Aren’t you good. If it goes the other way, you lost all your money. And that’s only though if you have to be selling out at that time.

Ryan: [00:21:17] So, and that’s why timeframe is critical having lots of time on your slave. So

Terry: [00:21:22] if you don’t have to sell out, then it’s okay.

But if you do. You sort of fact,  because if you’re forced to sell up at the wrong time, they’re in that cycle, you can lose all your money  and then some

Ryan: [00:21:32] and that’s probably a critical difference between property and shares is property. We’re more inclined to borrow to 90%, sometimes more. Whereas buying shares by building a portfolio we’re less inclined to borrow that hot was maybe 40 or 50% is relatively high,

Terry: [00:21:48] which is interesting.

Right? Because back to what you said before, the five dimensions of risk. Nobody is a concentrated asset when one asset class. And then you’ve kind of leveraged that out where more comfortable to take on more leverage in that more concentrated risk, where we have to be more raw, but we’re less comfortable to take on the same amount of risk in a more diversified asset.

That’s a real cultural thing, isn’t it?

Ryan: [00:22:09] It’s cultural. And it’s also the evolution of how shares have been organized. I think too. So before the rise of index funds and you’re listed investment companies and those types where you managed funds, there was a lot of direct shares. Which meant that is dangerous.

You know, there’s mum and dad, investors that are buying direct shares and having to try and stay on top of what company is doing, what, and it was quite risky to lend to those people at a higher rate because they weren’t as sophisticated as probably what they needed to be. Whereas the times have changed and now you’ve got things like the index fund and the LSAs and all those tops that a highly diversified, and there’s a manager of those basket of businesses, if you like.

And so the risk from the lender has gone down and I think that’s why things like the equity builder is starting to pop up because I recognize that it’s not as risky as it, what that used to be when shares were quiet

Terry: [00:23:02] individual. And just to explain what the equity builder is, we’ve sort of mentioned it a few times.

It’s like a home loan for shares.

Ryan: [00:23:07] Yeah. It’s kind of, in-between an investment loan for a property in a margin loan for shares. So it’s got the characteristics of you make principal and interest for payments. So you pay the consequence and you pay off some of the obligation, but it’s borrowed against us.

Portfolio of shares. So it’s always got that margin line element. So yeah, it’s kind of a changing in the times and evolution of how businesses are bought. So yeah, traditionally it’s been a lot easier to leverage up and use that to buy property and three Exelerate how long it takes you to get somewhere, because, but it’s becoming increasingly easier to do the same with shares because of those

Terry: [00:23:42] reasons.

And it’s probably because of, I guess the nature of where those two asset classes are, right? Like it’s gotten harder and harder to get into property. Now in Australia, the average property is 553 K that’s the average property. So imagine a world without debt. When would you buy a property when you were 70?

You just couldn’t do it. The value of property in Australia is just absolutely more expensive than anywhere else in the world.

Ryan: [00:24:03] Basically think about what it used to take to buy a property 30 years ago, it was like four times your annual income, sort of the averages. And now it’s up 10, 12 times. So it’s a lot longer timeframe.

It takes to be able to come up with the money to buy that

Terry: [00:24:17] property. Yeah, exactly. Just as an easy way to sort of think about how much debt you’re taking on how much you’re exposed to that risk. Do you want just quickly talk through loan to value ratio? Yeah. So

Ryan: [00:24:27] the loan to value ratio is a really good tool, just to think about how much debt you have against the asset that you own.

So you think about that example, you said before. That was 90 K borrowed for a hundred thousand dollar property. So that would be 90%. So 90 K divided by a hundred K, which would be 90%. So that would be highly leveraged, which means you need to be really careful about how you’re borrowing. We just want to be really conscious.

And I think you’ve come up with some really good principles. Haven’t you? Some rules around lending?

Terry: [00:24:58] Yeah. Yeah. From my perspective, I look at it and I think. People just talk about the numbers and to say, look it’s 90%, it’s the STL, VR, all these kind of things.  My brother used to be a mortgage broker and just used to talk about it.

Like it was basic and it’s actually not. Cause, um, you’re talking about the consequence. Like we said before, there’s a consequence for the next 10, 20, 30 years of this. I need to think about what that is. And that’s actually got nothing to do with numbers. That’s more about emotional intelligence than it is financial intelligence.

That’s new about knowing yourself and knowing who you are and what you want. And so yes, the numbers matter. But they’re not the whole story. We say this a lot. Life’s not lived in a spreadsheet. And so you’ve got to get your head out of the spreadsheet for a second, start to think, what does this actually mean?

What do these numbers mean for me now? What do they mean for me next year? What do they mean for me? Five, 10, 15, 20, 30 years. And can I deal with that? I’m happy with that. So the way to think about this is a little bit like a quadrant with two dimensions. And so yes, the numbers part of it is how manageable is this line for me from a numbers perspective.

And then from the emotional point of view, how tolerable is the lung and that’s different, that’s got nothing to do with them numbers. That’s about how you feel about it. If you think about how manageable it is, you want to think about two things and it’s basically what’s that loan to value ratio. How exposed am I?

And then how secure do I feel? My income is, remember what we said at the start. We’re living through a time of unprecedented economic uncertainty. And so you really gotta think about that. How secure is my income right now? Should I be leveraging myself up based on the fact that yes. I just got a 10 K pay rise or just got this job, or I’ve been in this job for X period of time.

We know that a lot of people have lost their jobs recently. And so remember that what the big mistake we talked about in the episode with Chris was the mental mistake of thinking that the way things are is the way they’re always going to be. So yeah, things are going great now, which means we’re always going to be gone, right?

You really just have to bake in a bit of a margin of safety for yourself here. Both ways things can get better and things can get worse. They never usually as bad or as good as we think via, but you just have to understand like the why things are doesn’t mean they’re going to be that way forever. And that’s the only thing you can bank on in life.

It’s also

Ryan: [00:27:00] like what you want as well. Like sometimes you want to transition and do something different. Like I think back if I had a home loan, probably the same for you. If you had a home loan, when we decided to start a business or even just toy with the idea of starting out own business, it would have been a very different

Terry: [00:27:16] equation.

Very different. That’s the reason I didn’t do it. And when I came to see you and got invested,  it was that  stage of life where you’re like, well, I guess it’s time to look at a property type thing. And when you look at the opportunity costs, and I knew what I wanted to be doing in that three, five, seven, 10 years after that Homeland for me would have completely changed my decision architecture.

What was possible, what I felt was available to me and what’s smart and feasible. That’s really important because if I had gone and done that, I probably would have locked myself into that income source. And that would’ve kept me in a career that wasn’t necessarily going too far.

Ryan: [00:27:49] It would have made your lives a little bit smaller.

Terry: [00:27:51] What have made me live a lots more? Wouldn’t taken any of those risks. And we talk about the value of may getting that money, putting in the market, getting an income from it, creating that sense of security that I could make money, whether or not it was at work. That was enough for me to make the decision and make that call and completely retool retrain, go to business school and take a few big career risks.

That was because I didn’t make the other decision. Cause I understood the implications of debt.

Ryan: [00:28:14] And that’s probably reversed now though, like that’s at that point in time, if you think about, if you took on a mortgage now and that extra applied pressure would probably be a good thing,

Terry: [00:28:22] equity builder is that for me? And so that’s what we like. We’re locking into our  strategy. We actually want that for savings mechanisms. So it’s really important to think about that. How manageable is it from a numbers perspective, those two things, your loan to value ratio, your income security, and then you’ve got, how tolerable is it?

And that’s like we said, just the degree to which you value or require flexibility. So like you say, for me are required at that time. It’s not so much now. And then typically, how do you respond to pressure? Do you rise to the challenge? Do you become more yourself or does it make you stress? Can you not sleep at night?

That’s a real thing. Some people really need to know themselves in that way and say, well, that’s not for me.

Ryan: [00:28:58] How would you know that? How would you know before you actually dive in, what are some examples? What are some other areas of your life, where you can probably get a sense for if you’re like pressure or having that, I guess sense of obligation.

Anything spring to mind?

Terry: [00:29:13] With debt luck beside it comes with the obligation and it  changes your decision architecture in that way. So if you’ve ever had people relying on you for certain things at times, and knowing that that was the case, how did you respond to that? Did you enjoy the experience?

Did it help you become more of yourself or are you more of a person who likes to de-leverage? And I think the example that Mihir decide gives in the wisdom of finances is a perfect one. So he talked about George Orwell. Who wrote the famous book, 1984, he was a journalist and he was trying to write this whole thing on the side of doing his job.

And he just couldn’t do it. What he needed to do was they leverage and he needed to make his loss simpler and smaller to make that thing happened. Whereas, and he talks about an art dealer who basically sold these grand sort of ideas about what he was going to create and then went in and  had to  get the skills to make it happen.

So that obligation actually made him lots of money. Yeah. He needed the pressure to make it happen. And so it’s about how you’re responding to that pressure. George all will needed less and he needed more. And so again, this is why we say it comes back to self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Who are you?

Are you George or you’re the art basically. And if there’s a spectrum, where do you sit

on the spectrum? Going back to what you said about like, having people rely on you. An example might be maybe doing a project at work. And the obligation has been to attain to get the project done. And the consequence has been putting in the time to be productive.

And maybe it was a great thing for you and you love the pressure of it. And you love working in that way. And having that reliance on you. Or maybe it’s going the other way and it’s, you fell a little bit crippled by it and you prefer to work on your own and just do your own thing.

Yeah. And it’s probably like, we’re not talking about being comfortable and uncomfortable because I think certain degree of discomfort comes with growth and challenge, and that improves you.

It’s talking about whether it actually has a measurable impact on the quality, leave your life. Whether it’s consuming you basically in a way that’s not healthy. Only you can answer that question. No, broker’s going to be able to tell you that no property advisors are gonna be able to tell you that only you can answer that question.

You have to have that conversation with yourself. When we think about these two dimensions, we can kind of plot four different types of decisions with debt, right? If we’ve got, how manageable is it? How tolerable is it? You have an image of this in the show notes for you, and it’s also in the blog, but as a simple quadrant, it’s basically not manageable on the left.

Very manageable on the right. And then we’ve got the vertical axis and we’ve got not tolerable on the bottom and very tolerable more than Tobar on the right. Obviously, we want to be making decisions with debt that are financially manageable and emotionally colorable

Ryan: [00:31:43] for us. What would you call it? If it was not manageable and intolerable, I’d

Terry: [00:31:47] call it committing financial suicide.

Nice. So that’s me taking on from a numbers perspective. Doesn’t make sense. There’s no margin of safety there for me. I’m kind of walking off financial, tight rope there. And I actually don’t enjoy the experience at all. It’s not helping me. It’s actually ruining my life. That’s funny. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:32:05] What if it was still unmanageable, but it was taller.

Terry: [00:32:09] Yeah. So this one is an interesting one. I think if you’re taking on that kind of debt where you’re like, Whoa, this is kind of on the edge for me, but you can tolerate it emotionally. It’s kind of like you’re throwing a hail Mary you’re sort of going, let’s see if this works out, you know, And maybe you’re a thrill seeker and you lock that shit again up to you, but just know like you’re kind of on that edge there financially for yourself too.

Yeah.

Ryan: [00:32:30] I have a lot of confidence in yourself in the future. I think for that one, to be able to handle that as well as do better than what you’re doing right now.

Terry: [00:32:37] And you’ve got to know that it’s confidence and not arrogance. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:32:42] That’s another Tyrone. Okay. So let’s go to the then if it is manageable, but is intolerable.

Terry: [00:32:49] Yeah. So this is one where I think a lot of people sit here, whether or not they know it or not. As for me sort of dragging a ball and chain, right? You made this decision. You actually now regret it, but you’ve got to live with it. Maybe you could make changes, but there’s kind of too much friction between you and that.

So you just go, look, this is my lot in life now, and this is what I’ve got to do. I think there are a lot of people that sit in this place, it’s almost like, yeah. The people that are in the pool going I’ll come in. It’s great. It’s great. And then you jump in the water. It’s freezing. I think that happens a lot with home lights.

It’s like, yeah, yeah, you got to get it home. You got to have this thing work. And an actual fact, a lot of those people are like, man, this sucks. So it’s

Ryan: [00:33:26] like you sorta just going through the motions. Like you’re not thriving. You’re getting by you. Don’t well, yeah,

Terry: [00:33:32] those people, they talk about wanting to be more adventurous and things like that.

And then. These are they’re making, uh, taking them the other way. That’s that situation there, you’ve sort of created a rod through your own back there. So yes, you can manage it financially, but it’s changed your choice architecture in a way that’s actually not helping the quality of your

Ryan: [00:33:46] life. Okay, so they kind of the lower end and then we’ve got tolerable and manageable what’s happening there.

It’s gotta be a good place,

Terry: [00:33:54] Liz, where you feel good about it. And you feel like it’s something you’re comfortable with. It’s not really hindering you. You feel like in the long run, it’s going to help you and you kind of run the numbers and you feel good about that. And the numbers do make sense. You’re like, this is more than easy for me.

I can handle it for me. That’s where we say it’s taking a calculated risk. That’s where you start to really level up. If you can use that in this way, we are always taking calculated risks. They will get really good at this. And I massively accelerate their growth because of it. And when I was writing this article, I was like, it needs to be like that for me.

And it needs to make sense in that why, and until I could understand that for myself and articulate it, I wouldn’t do anything with debt. It’s probably still taken a year or so between now and then since writing it. And then, like you say, my kind of stage of life has changed, but knowing that, or having that kind of mental model for me, it helps it fits into that category.

If you’re thinking about it, how do I know it’s those two dimensions, but if you want some more tools to think about it, then go back to the episode. We titled 14 questions to avoid making big money, mistakes, and just run it through that filter and a framework that can really help as well. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:34:53] And what’s really important to touch on here is you could move on both of these spectrums on the same amount of debt.

Okay. So it’s the same amount of debt. And these are both about you in a lot of ways. Yeah. The debt can go up and make it less manageable and less tolerable. Yeah, that’s definitely true. But let’s say the debt stays at the same point. It can go from a manageable to manageable just by. Managing your money?

Well, doing the money mapping method. I think about one of our members, Ellie, she was 12 months ago. The amount of debt that she’s taking out now was unmanageable. But now that she’s got everything in really well dialed in, it’s manageable and she’s feeling really good about it.

Terry: [00:35:30] Cause it was probably tolerable for her the whole time, but it wasn’t manageable.

Ryan: [00:35:34] Yep. And then on the other axis, You can go from intolerable, tolerable, just through education and understanding and also experience. Yes, I’m becoming comfortable with it. So when you understand it better, the easier it is to tolerate it, the better you manage managing money easier. It is to make it manageable.

Terry: [00:35:51] Yeah, we’ve talked about this, the product, the equity builder is it allows you to do that. You can say start small, dip your toe in the water with a small amount and see how that, and then you can ratchet it up. That’s what I like about that product. See if you can actually have a few experiences that aren’t the big one before you do the big one, like build up your self-awareness about how you feel about it.

With that, you can start, you can get the 50 K line, but you don’t need to use the whole 50 K. You can start with like 10 and might be a hundred dollar obligation every month. How’d that feel? Did you like that? Was it fun? And then maybe do that for you and you say, Oh, that feels fun. Let’s put it up to 20.

Could you do that whole thing? And maybe you get up to 15 million. This is absolutely fun. And through doing that, you have accelerated your wealth, but you’ve also built some self-awareness around it. I think it’s the assumption is that your first big kind of foray into debt has to be the home loan. And, um, maybe it doesn’t have to be

Ryan: [00:36:42] yet.

That’s probably what I like about shares as well. Like you can start with $2,000, might be 10, $15 brokerage start at $2,000 and you can slowly ratchet that up. And the same with the debt that you use against it. You slowly ratcheted up as you comfort grows, as it feels more manageable. And as it feels more tolerable, you can ratchet those things up.

Okay. So we’ve talked about the four corners of the quadrant, and we know that we want it to be highly tolerable and highly manageable. And how do we get there? How do we make sure that we end up there? Or how do we stay in that place?

Terry: [00:37:13] It’s all about making sure that we’re in that quadrant where we’re taking calculated risks with debt.

And so to make sure we end up there, that’s a pretty simple principle. Just always bar, less than you can afford, because it leaves you a margin of safety. And never skimp on due diligence. And like we’ve said, just do your homework because if you’re taking on debt, you need to be right in the long run and you need to be able to manage it in the short run.

So you have to be in financial, in a place where you can deal with any fluctuations. And it also has to grow or get to a point where it was worth it for you to be able to take on the cost. Now, the caveat here is what Chris had said, make sure you don’t go too far the other way. And you think more about taking on less debt and not about the asset you’re trying to buy and whether it’s worth it.

And so that’s where the due diligence pot comes in. Make sure you’re buying an asset that

Ryan: [00:37:56] is worth it. So kind of sets this ceiling, which is not borrowing beyond what you can afford. And then this floor, which is don’t go below your due diligence. Do the due diligence so that you don’t go underneath a certain point.

Can I help

Terry: [00:38:08] you avoid those two extremes have gone too far, the other way, being on that sort of pendulum. So, you know, in terms of due diligence, what does that look like? That looks like you really digging in and understanding whatever it is you’re buying. Get really good information. Think about it deeply and debate it.

Get someone to play devil’s advocate and argue against it. Understand both sides of the situation. Now we do this regularly. Well, I’m saying, I think this is a good idea. Tell me why I’m wrong. Have someone tell you why you’re wrong, listen to what they say. And if you still think that makes sense, but it’s probably a good indication.

Okay.

Ryan: [00:38:39] There is not holding onto your previous opinion too strongly. Yeah. It’s tough. You don’t want to get defensive. You want to be able to hear it and then potentially rebuttal it. If you can’t say that. Sorry, if you

Terry: [00:38:52] can’t argue both sides equally, you don’t understand it. And so if you want a milestone or a marker that I’ve done my due diligence, then I can confidently argue both ways for this decision.

And you might say then, well, how do you know whether I should do it or not? Well, it’s easy if you’ve actually thought about what kind of life you’re trying to build and what the experience needs to be, if it takes you closer to that. So that’s how you stay in quadrant one. So the second one is to avoid wanting up in quadrant one where the dense, unmanageable, but tolerable, and you’re throwing a hail Mary.

You want to make sure that your ambition is not clouding your reason, so never let your ambition clad your reason. I reckon this one’s pretty common here in Australia. It’s the romantic decision of property. That’s just what I want. And I’m going to make it work that gets people in a lot of trouble, or I can, I know people they’re extending themselves in these crazy ways and I’m sort of glad that I don’t understand what they’re doing to be honest.

So I’m like, I don’t know how you’d sleep at night if you knew. Yeah. And so this is you just checking yourself. What is manageable here and where does this actually sit? And weighing that up against what you want. And it’s a good test for any purchase, really? Because I think sometimes your ambition is all about how you want to be perceived or what image you’re trying to portray.

So you should ask yourself the question. Would I make this decision if no one would ever find out no one ever knew. And I didn’t have a story to tell about it. Because if the answer is yes, then it’s probably not ambition.

Ryan: [00:40:12] Do you know what the other side of that I think is it’s desire and I love what Novell Robert Kahn says.

He talks about it from a Buddhist context. He says a desire is a contract with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. And another question might be, can you be happy without it?

Terry: [00:40:28] Yeah, that’s good too. Can you be happy without it? And is it possible to be unhappy with it?

Ryan: [00:40:35] Just help balance yourself.

Terry: [00:40:36] Exactly. Yeah. So I think, yeah, you want to make sure that you’re not trying to sell a story to the world, not trying to create some sort of image. It has to make sense for you and a life you are trying to build, not about anybody else. And we talk about debt that’s manageable, but intolerable, which is where we’re dragging the ball and chain.

How do we make sure we stay out of that? That’s just all about being honest with yourself, what you really want out of life. I feel like we’ve said this multiple times, but this is actually kind of the key. Don’t do something like you feel like you should, if you use the word should, if you’re thinking, I guess I should buy a house now, or I guess you should do this now, as soon as you hear yourself use that word, it’s not yours should tells you that you’re basically injecting other people’s values into your life.

Yeah. That’s good insight. So if you want to make sure that you never found to be dragging a ball and shine with debt, just check yourself in that language, if you’ve ever used that word. Sure. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:41:27] Always be thinking about, you know, what’s right for you and not whatever unexpected of you. That’s critical.

And then the last one, so staying at a place where it’s unmanageable and intolerable. What’s

Terry: [00:41:38] the principle say to avoid committing financial suicide. That’s the one

Ryan: [00:41:43] you dramatic. Boston

Terry: [00:41:44] will do what you’re doing right now. Invest in educating yourself, spend a lot of time developing your self-awareness about who you are as well.

So yeah, don’t go into it with eyes wide shut, go into it with eyes wide open, never get invested or never make a financial decision because someone tells you the time’s running out. Never, ever do that. As soon as that happens, that’s not your human brain thinking anymore. That’s your animal brain thinking.

Yeah. So if someone says you’ve got to get in and you need to get in now, that’s probably a good market. I sit and think it’s not that they’re wrong, but it has to be right for you. And remember only you can make that decision. No one can make that one for you.

Ryan: [00:42:23] Yeah. And I think for me, I need to be able to see what’s on the other side of that decision, what life looks like beyond it.

And this is like from a cashflow perspective and that kind of informs the lifestyle that you’re able to live and the progress you’re still able to make. Even with that obligation. That’s where I go to like, be able to forecast project cashflow for a year or two after having that obligation and see what it really looks like.

I need to know that life’s still good. I can still have that adventure. Yeah. I can still do the travel that I’m not sacrificing too much life for this obligation. And this obligation is giving me more life has given me more things in terms of

Terry: [00:43:03] quality of life. Second or third episode of whole podcasts.

We talked about the four rules for rich life control of mine versus collecting more money. Basically. It’s actually, it has been proven for a long time that the only way to use them need to improve your quality of life is to use it, to buy more control of your time. Yes. The only way to use money. So if your decision to use money is reducing the control of your time.

Are we not going to improve the quality a lot? Actually, it’s definitely not going to. Different when you decide to do it at that different stage of life where that’s what you want. But if you do have big dreams and big ambitions and you want to do all these things, it doesn’t make sense to be making these decisions that sort of erode that agency.

Now I can’t help you if you’re not self-aware. So the best thing to do is ask people around you and get a sense from them, ask them, how do you think I would do in this situation? So if you’re not sure of yourself, or you’re not sure of your kind of awareness level, ask people that are believable, people that know you in a lots of different situations that have a lot of experience of you.

Ask them, do you think this is going to be good for me or not? You don’t have to listen to everyone, gather some information about it and go from there. And like we said, sort of the antidote for this is starting small and building your own self-awareness through experience. Maybe you get a small debt for some shares or something like that.

You just feel how that feels and you sort of, that was okay. Maybe I’m just gonna go to the next level now the next level now. And actually I’m fine with this. This is good. You know, starting slow, starting small and mitigating your risk in that sense and exposure. Building your self awareness in that way.

Yeah.

Ryan: [00:44:28] And that really speaks to being able to tolerate it. And from a standpoint, from making sure it’s manageable, like, I think you need to map your cash flow forward. And this is something we do with our members where they’re looking at an obligation, they’re looking at borrowing money to do something.

We make sure we map it out and see how that costs alongside the life that they’re living now and say, does that hinder living situation, the current way of living and what that lifestyle looks like? Or does it not? Is it okay? Is it manageable? Does it add some, maybe some maybe pressure? Where is that pressure going to come from?

So at least, you know, before that actually happens and you’ve used

Terry: [00:45:01] that word a couple of times now, forecast, just so we’re not speaking over the top of people here, when you say that, what

Ryan: [00:45:06] does that look like? Yeah. So just what does the months look like in terms of what’s coming in, what’s going out and then knowing that for the next 12 next two years, potentially.

So knowing exactly what comes in and what goes out. And having that be realistic as well, tracking how things are going, how money’s moving and using that to inform that pattern of

Terry: [00:45:26] spending forward. So if you have no idea what you, the last 12 months has looked like, your ability to forecast the next 12 months is probably not.

Okay. Yeah. Yep. So the case, when you’re talking about forecasting, is you having a good handle on what’s happening now? So that you can have a better handle on what could be potentially be happening in the future.

Ryan: [00:45:44] Yeah. I have a really good structure in the way that your money is set up and now exactly what it’s doing and you don’t know how money has moved through your life.

Over the last even three months is probably enough to be able to shoot forward. Then it’s very hard for you to be able to see into the future of what that obligation might do

Terry: [00:46:00] to your life. And for us in the business and for our members, we’re doing this every four months, basically. Aren’t we saying, this is what happened in the last four months and also hope you’re at a time before that.

And let’s project out another 12 based on what we know based on what we think is coming up. And I have to say, when we’re talking about making financial decisions, it really does help a lot to know, to have a good sense for that. Oh yeah. Because otherwise it’s like, you’re trying to see the future and it’s just, you kind of relying on your feeling about it and the forecast you do with the actual numbers.

They’re different. I,

Ryan: [00:46:31] yeah, it just takes you out of the day. Worries. All that helps you zoom out and get some perspective on it. Where are you going? Like we have very

Terry: [00:46:38] different personalities. You and I. And if we were just to rely on our personalities to forecast and then not put it down and sort of have the discussion number is so different, right.

Ryan: [00:46:49] I’ll be on the moon,

Terry: [00:46:50] you’re on the moon. And I’m

Ryan: [00:46:51] like, well, basically

Terry: [00:46:56] I’ve come on. But I’m more

Ryan: [00:46:57] optimistic, very optimistic,

Terry: [00:46:59] which I love, which I think is awesome. But you know, when we do those forecasts, you can really see the difference between the two. Yeah. And I think just the practice, you know, putting it down really doesn’t matter.

So if you’re kind of thinking, listening to this going, Oh, that’s great. But you know, who knows how to forecast it? That’s okay. You don’t need to know, you can talk to someone like us. That’s what we do. As part of our program. You can get some help to do it. That gives her now clarity for months and months and months.

This is where we’re going. I don’t need to stress about all these things. This is what’s ahead of me. It’s this really helps with you with clear thinking. I think so if you’re going into a debt decision without having a forecast, you might be going in blind. I’d

Ryan: [00:47:30] never go into an obligation without having that clarity.

No,

Terry: [00:47:34] and I think that’s, what’s good about. The guys that are kind of working with us now they can go to their broken. That can be like, here’s the last 12. He is the next 12.

Ryan: [00:47:42] Yeah. And yes, I can afford it and I can tolerate it. Yeah. And

Terry: [00:47:46] they’re real numbers. Yeah.

Ryan: [00:47:47] Absolutely. And people can get to your post as well.

Terry: [00:47:50] Yeah. So we’ve kind of talked around in circles a few times and sort of added a little bit more nuance to it, through our own experiences and stories here. But if you just kind of want the info. And you want it in more of a distilled form than just check the show notes for this episode. And the link to the post will be on our website and yeah, it’s pretty concise.

Yeah. And

Ryan: [00:48:06] especially those principles. I think even if you go into that plot, those principles, write them down somewhere, have them accessible to you. That’s just a part of your decision-making framework. You just want to have them available to you just to help guide you just have them in the back of your mind.

Terry: [00:48:21] Just like a sense check. All right. Well, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Tell us if he did tell us if he didn’t keep sending us reviews, always hoping to get feedback from you. Big news coming up as well. We’re getting messages from a lot of people all the time on all different channels. And so we’ve decided that we’re going to make it easier for you to get into contact with us, and we’re going to be building a community shortly.

So I’m going to be mentioning that more in the next episode. But there’s going to be a place where you can go when you can start to chat with us more before podcasts and after our podcast episodes as well. So yeah, we’re looking forward to meeting more of you and then helping you meet each other as well, because there’s some really cool paper that we’ve kind of been in contact with from all over the world.

Now, when you can, we need to bring it all to

Ryan: [00:49:00] you. Yeah, absolutely. And so in the next episode, we’re going into talking about. How do we use debt against the home? There’s a lot of people that a lot of their wealth is tied up in the home and starting to create some equity in might be starting to think about what do I do next?

So we’re going to be talking specifically to you guys, basically, what smart, what options you have available to you and how do you build that wealth? Once you’ve got the home, this is

Terry: [00:49:23] a good, well, I think it’s probably the least known wealth building strategy out there, but probably one of the best. It’s not very well known.

It’s not very well utilized, but those that do use it, they definitely rape the war wards. So we’re going to be showing you how to use the equity in your home to be excited. Right. And that wealth in a way, that’s a, it’s not one of the yellow, all my money’s in the harm or it’s all in the share market or it’s all over here.

It’s not that it’s helping you kind of use them all to your advantage.

Ryan: [00:49:47] Yeah. So that’s, what’s coming up. Don’t forget to share and subscribe and looking forward to chatting to you guys next couple of weeks and the new upside to you guys. Isn’t

Terry: [00:49:55] high. If you’ve listened this far, you’re a rare breed. See, most people won’t do the work to change their money story, but not you.

If you’re listening to this, you’ll probably much more optimistic, motivated, and action orientated than the rest. So. We’ve left an Easter egg here just for you. We’ve unlocked our exclusive insider’s training designed to help you get beyond learning so that you can begin doing. And in this short, impactful training, you’ll discover the four factors that work together to ensure you’ll save sustainably so that you can invest consistently.

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If you’re the kind of person who knows that, what often looks like the long road is almost always a shortcut. And this training is for you to access this training. Just click the link below in the show notes or visit www.cashflowco.com forward slash four factors.

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