#51 Jeff Booth | The Future of Money in a World without Fiat

Terry: Hi, legend. And we’ll come back to the passive income project. This is Terry. The conversation you’re about to hear might be one of the most important I’ve had on the show. And I’ll explain why there are a few I’m missing your life, where you will view completely shifts. And as unsettling as this can be in the moment, in most cases, I’ve found it to be a huge step forward in terms of your ability to course correct towards your goals and the reason why is that it’s only when you come to know that the frame you’ve been viewing the world through is flawed, that you can start building a more accurate representation of reality.

And this just opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Just imagine how Christopher Columbus discovered the world was in fact round, not flat. Imagine how that changed, how people thought about the future and what was possible. What kind of ideas when now into tank, what kind of knowledge and insights were gained and what did we build to help us navigate this new reality?

So my guest for this episode was the person responsible for causing that kind of paradigm shift in me. And then Ron as well, Jeff Booth is a technology entrepreneur investor macro-economic thought leader. And he’s also the author of the global bestseller. The price of. If you want to get a better handle on how technology is impacting our current system and where things are headed, stop what you are doing right now and go and order a copy of this book.

I’ll have a link in the show notes. It was reading Jeff’s book that really opened my eyes to the logic that explains the birth and the growth of Bitcoin. The book isn’t really about Bitcoin, but it does a beautiful job of peeling back. All the lattice work of assumptions. The Fayette system is wrapped into reveal.

The core truth behind the predicament the world is facing right now is markets around the world continue to tremble after a single right Roz. So I wanted to have Jeff on the show to expand upon the big ideas in his book and offer us a glimpse into the future from somebody who has had a front row seat to the information technology tidal wave, and he’s blazing a trail towards a bright up, more inclusive future.

We went widened deep to explore the issues caused by a current system and also what the world could look like with. So if you listen to our decoding crypto series and looking for a deeper dive into the Fiat’s system, this episode has nuggets of pure gold and will give you an even better understanding of how things work or don’t work.

And Jeff explains why the big problem that credit sold is actually no longer a problem as a result of Bitcoin. If you didn’t listen to our crypto series, cause you think Bitcoin is a bubble and nothing needs to change. I would challenge you to hear what Jeff has to say before making up your mind. I am not overstating things.

When I say that there are very few people on the planet, more qualified to talk about the future and the future of money than Jeff. And he gave you and I more than an hour of his time to share his expertise and insights. So if you find yourself listening to this episode and you feel the urge to want to give back to Jeff, there’s a simple way you can do it, help his message, reach more people by doing one simple thing.

Share this episode with your socials and buy his book. And just a quick note before we do crack in, after listening back to this episode a few times, I realized there are a couple of instances where I would have liked to cut in and walk through the details and mechanics a little more. So I’ve recorded little explainer snippets here and there just to improve the continuity of this episode with that said let’s get into it.

Jeff. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jeff: No problem at all, terry. Good to see ya.

Terry: And I was just saying to you, before we sort of press record there, look, I think there’s a few books in my life that have completely shifted my worldview. And I have to say none of them have come close to the price of tomorrow. So well done on that. Makers read a few books and nothing like yours. Thanks very much. It’s why it is one of those that turns your world upside down, but appreciate us. Yeah. And I’ve heard you say this a lot on podcasts where you’ve said, I actually didn’t want to write a book. What was it that made you go? I’m going to anyway,

Jeff: my kids, I realized that the world I lived in wouldn’t look like the world that they lived in in last week had a first principles discussion about what was, how. And nobody was seeming to have a conversation. And quite honestly, I was getting frustrated because I could see where the world would go without that conversation.

And so that’s why I wrote the book. Why do you think no one’s

having that conversation? Is it just that no one knows.

We get diluted. We work in systems and we see a system from the system and it’s very hard to see a new system from the system that we were in. And that same thing applies to any business.

It’s why Kodak failed. It’s why blockbuster failed. That’s why every business fails when technology solves a problem in a different way. And that same thing is happening at the highest level that we can imagine that controls every other thing it’s happening at our monetary layer. We’ve never asked those questions before, so they’re uncomfortable questions.

So it’s easier just to trust what we had looking backwards has always been correct. And instead of questioning that, so the why there is we get to complacent

Terry: with fishing. Right. Right. So something you just said there, I would love to dive in on that a little bit. Money is the kind of base layer. Why is money? The base layer

Jeff: money is just information. The truth is all of the people listening to this podcast. They actually don’t want more money. What they want is what they think more money will buy them. For some people, they believe that more money will buy them more time, but some people believe that more money will buy them more love.

Some people believe that a that buys them more vacations, but whatever they believe the thing is about money that they’ll buy them. That’s what they really want the feeling of what money drives them. So it’s just information connecting that. But the division of labor that allows me to be an entrepreneur or somebody else to be a metalworker or somebody else to be a woodworker and all over the world, that division of labor requires.

Trust and money, which is just a form of exchange that your work has X value in my work has the same value, and nobody’s going to manipulate that information in between. So when that information is manipulated in between trust breaks down between humans and another way to look at it, as you could say, every cell is actually a computer and every human is a computer.

And what makes the computer is energy storage and compute power. Those three things. And because humans are limited in storage and compute power, we network the computer together through this information and what we get as a super computer, where we’re networked together through idea, generation and critical thinking.

And if different people having ideas and those ideas explode faster and faster and faster, when there’s trust in that information exchange, you could say that the networked humans is a super. As a way to look at. And actually, if you want to do investigate that down to the sand, you’d say where there isn’t trust in communities, the computer doesn’t work very well.

You get very vibrant economies and because all of that work makes us better and better and better. So for a long time, if you take the history of us moving from, from small tribes where we all did everything to that division of labor that allowed the world to grow and, and all of the benefit of where we’re getting, then the printing press gave us more storage capacity and that storage capacity was two things.

It allowed more people to contribute to the global information, but important because that storage was now written down, it allowed more people to error, correct. On top of that information. And we had an explosion of more and more minds contributing and more and more information and error correction on that information.

And throughout time, that’s really what that looks like now underneath that system. To hold it together. We, we typically had a gold based system and a hard currency system because effectively throughout history, if you could change the rules for your gain over somebody else’s expense, human nature says you will, throughout time, that always happens.

And what happened with gold as a kind of holding that trust mechanism in place were hardest currency and hold that trust mechanism place. So people couldn’t cheat to get velocity and money to get money, to move faster all around the world. As we transitioned our world to trade between nations, we built a credit based system on top of that system.

I would

Terry: love to just slow down on this point. Cause I know that you said this recently at the conference, it just struck me. This is so important, right? Because what you just said was we had a goal-based system. So that means that when I’m giving you money, you’re actually receiving money. But what we’ve tried to do, or we do.

Is we wanted to move money faster so we could grow things better and trade with more people. Correct. Right. And so what we did was we created an abstraction of real money or credit, and then we stopped trading in this thing. And that’s kind of got us to now. Yeah. But

Jeff: again, goddess to now. And then what happens on a credit based system is it creates an incentive note, credit based system isn’t inherently good or bad.

It just is. And what ends up happening is, but there creates an incentive to essentially cheat because the lower the reserve, if you started out and you lowered the reserves in the bank, then the bank can make more money because there’s more leverage. And so it sets up a system where, because of the credit, the credit needs to keep on growing forever and the credit growing forever, it wouldn’t have to grow forever because what would happen is in a economy that shrank, when greed overtook, what would happen if you’re in greed, drives everything that credit-based system would collapse and the gold underneath that people would race on hold the.

So it doesn’t have to collapse, but it has to have a cycle through history that looks a lot like human nature, fear and greed. And as soon as you had a credit contract, people would race back for their gold or you’d have a recession. But what happens if you have humans in the loop that can change the rules and school that has to be centralized, they change the rules and they changed the rules and they either seize the gold or they change the rules of the pricing of gold and essentially wipe out all the savers with the people who took the risk in the first place.

So a credit based system effectively, once you’re in that, and those cycles through history, they set up longterm debt cycles. There’s so much debt. They can’t be repaired. That you completely changed the rules of money itself, and you just make up new money to drive inflation, to be able to pay back the debt with cheaper money later on,

Terry: which is kind of where we find ourselves

Jeff: right now, right?

That’s where we find ourselves. Now this has happened throughout history on a hard money currency with credit on top of it, because you get to these cycles driven by human nature and you get to these cycles where it breaks at the end of that cycle. And the only way to solve that paradox is typically through war.

When we go to the war, the winner of the. And you can imagine what happens if you look back through history, people fight and they get turned against each other. Humans get turned against each other all over the world because they believe in the narrative that it’s somebody else’s fault instead of it’s the money underneath the system.

And it is the system that gets you there. So you fight for more and more narratives. Those people are bad. Those people are bad and society breaks apart and you go through typically division of politics within every country, but he gets selected that tells society it’s those people’s fault. And then they have no way to fix the system from the system.

So they have to create a greater enemy outside their borders to control the population. So that’s where we unfortunately find ourselves today. But what’s different about this cycle is we’ve never actually had the weapons to destroy humanity through a monetary failing, like we’re going through right now.

And so was a really different time in the. With nine countries that have nuclear weapons in any one person could kind of press a button and start a pretty dismal outcome.

Terry: So just to go back on that point. So you’re saying the system as it’s created, when it’s taken to its logical end point, which feels like where we’re at right now, it’s the seeds of discontent in society. And people don’t understand that it’s the system and we need to point fingers at people. And the greatest way for us to be distracted is to start a war.

Jeff: I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but manipulation and money, because it’s just a manipulation of your time. Or information must mean manipulation everywhere in society.

So who controls the narrative of money controls and as people race to try to get their more share of that money, which is just misinformation, you can expect every single media to be corrupted by the same thing, education system, to be corrupted by the same thing, medical establishment to it. And they don’t even know that they’re getting corrupted by it.

Oftentimes they just haven’t put together why that’s a function of misinformation and money. So you’d just have to expect most areas of your life. That if you’re reading information from the system, you’re seeing misinformation everywhere else. And it gets really confusing. It’s ways you’re to believe that it’s somebody else’s fault, then all of that misinformation.

Yeah,

definitely is. I really want to make sure we get that point, right? Because manipulation of money creates misinformed. The why I heard this described, I can’t remember what book it was in. I think it might’ve been Bitcoin billionaires. I talked about the guy that introduced the Winklevoss twins to Bitcoin and the way he framed it was it’s the money is the original social network that clicked for me because I realized like when I give you money, I’m communicating something about what I care about and what’s valuable.

And when money is not real, and that we’ve kind of talked about this in our series, you said, you know, you look through the pandemic and you see things like GameStop. None of that is real that’s people who don’t value money. That’s people who are playing with money. And so it says nothing about the reality of that business game stop.

And I think that’s indicative of where we find ourselves with money. But as you said, that’s a link to information as well, because that is

infant. Some of these things are gonna be challenging for some of your audience, because many people haven’t investigated this at the level that it needs to be to be able to see it.

So what you go through your life and you don’t realize that every single thing is that equation. And then you think you live in a democracy, but 70% of the funding of the government comes from an inflation and you don’t have a vote in inflation, even vote in taxes, but you don’t have a vote in inflation.

And nobody tells you that. So all sides, nobody talks about that. And that’s why I said, it’s a function of the system and nobody’s willing to have the conversation on how do we change the system. And unfortunately, there is no change from the system. The system is already insolvent globally. It relies on, who’s going to press a button and steal more money from some people to give to others.

And when are they going to do it? And I’ll tell you why if money is just credit today, and there’s nothing backing that credit is just credit and governments actually tied. Then some stats, 22% of all companies in the U S right now can’t make their interest payments on their previous debt. So there’s RV companies requiring more and more dental all the time.

So as interest rates go up in this rolls, over 20% of all the companies is a lot of companies are in the public’s eye and think about all the employees. And so when they come in and they go bankrupt, where they would go bankrupt because you stop printing money. And all of those employees use cascade and the economy drops and all those employees that can’t now pay their mortgage.

All the prices drop at the housing and all that money gets destroyed. And as that gets destroyed, all of the banks fail and it just cycles through. And it’s not just in the U S it’s all around the world. So when you look at the stock markets, all of the markets, everything correlated, because it’s all decided when somebody’s going to press a button and a make-up Mormon.

You don’t have a free market. You don’t actually have a functioning economy. It’s all based on illusion. If that’s illusion is true, then that means every pricing signal in the market is also like that. And it also means if you know that the government has to bail you out, and you’re a hedge fund where you’re a BlackRock or Blackstone, and you realize that that’s case, it means you can make massive one-way bats.

And you know that the bets will always they’ll socialize the losses. And so you don’t actually have capitalism. You have crony capitalism and the breakdown of society. Let’s

Terry: just dig in on that point there, you said, socialize the losses, right? Cause this is essentially the system we’re in. We privatized the gains and we socialize the losses. Can you explain exactly how that works?

Jeff: Let’s say all of those companies would go broke and they can’t go broke because all the jobs would go away. That means they have a one-way ticket to CEO’s compensation keeps going up higher and higher. And if they failed all of the credits all over the world would unwind to essentially. The only thing you would have left every bank that you think you have money in. And it’s just a credit note and somebody else’s counterparty risk, what would happen is the only money that would be worth of any value would be the stuff under your mattress yet the actual, actual, the

notes and taking your notes out.

Correct?

Well, probably less so that, because they can just print more and everything else, but that socializing losses, let’s just say inflation is wage deflation. It’s the same thing. It’s the other side of the coin. So if you’re working for wages, trying to escape a system, that’s inflating money trying to save your money so you can buy an asset.

What that means is you’re working harder and harder and harder as it’s racing away from you and you trying to save more and more money and you can never catch up because it’s a design of the system. It’s actually picking the pockets of the young people and transferring it to the wealthy. And conversely, if you have.

25 houses or a hundred houses or a million houses, then all of those houses go up at that rate. And they mounted debt that you had on those go down because there were dollars being devalued over time.

Terry: Yeah. So that’s how it gets transferred, right? From savers to owners of assets.

Jeff: Exactly. As simple, simple way to look at this as imagine going around the monopoly board.

And if you get lucky, you land on the right squares and you have more of the assets than somebody else, and they go and pay rents around the board. Now imagine near the end of that game, before the games kicked over, or somebody wins at imagine that instead of at $200, the bank where the government in this case says, I’m going to give you $300.

Cause you can’t get around the game board anymore, but all of the properties go up and now $300. Doesn’t get you around the. Yeah, I’m going to give you a 400 and all the properties go up more and you can see just through that really simple example, that there’s no way out of it from the system. It drives the divide of society.

Exactly the way that it is right now, all of the world. So people think they got a raise, but their food prices and house prices and everything else went up way faster than the raise. They actually got a pay decrease. This

Terry: is what I find ironic is, you know, when I was diving into the research and really trying to understand this whole thing, I found it so ironic that John Maynard Keynes is famous for a quote that says, you know, in 50 years we should all be working 14 hours a week, but it’s actually he’s ideas that have prevented exactly that

Jeff: it’s wild that he wrote that paper is very ideal.

Are the reason why prices haven’t fallen and the technology hasn’t created that abundance for

Terry: us. So why do you think we cling to this? Right. So I was educated and conditioned in this way of thinking and your book was a massive wake up call to me. And it kind of really made me revisit a whole lot of assumptions that I’d built my life around.

When we talk about this to people that actually get defensive and I find without even knowing it they’ll even personally attack you. Why do you think this happens? Cause like we just identified, this system is robbing us. It’s bleeding as dry as a society. And it’s leading us to a place that frankly, none of us want to go through. Why would we defend it?

Jeff: Because we’re short-term thinkers and very, very few people think about the one step in front of them instead of the second order. Third order derivatives of that. And so they cannot see past the initial step. They don’t think through all of the next things that have to happen from a system that they’re in and they defend the system.

And I will say that it’s Terri, book’s been a bestseller for three years or something like that, international bestseller. And I’m not saying that to brag. I’m just what I’m saying is this, there isn’t one person globally, not one that has done a take down of the key arguments in that book, not one. And you would think with hundreds of thousands of copies sold and how much it is against the existing system, you would think that the money and the power would do it an actual take down point by point on where I’m wrong.

There’s a lot of money to do that. So why isn’t it done? And I wrote it in a way that essentially you would have to disprove what I say. We all know technologies to play. We all know technology frees our time. We all know we wouldn’t use technology. Look at what we’re on right now. We couldn’t have done this 10 or 15 years ago.

So why do we use it? We use it because it saves our time and it touches way more people than they use it because it does the same thing. So how could it be that we concurrently believe that in technology freeing our time and we use it and we vote with our time to be able to use it all the time. And it’s moving everywhere and blistering pace in society.

How could we think a system could be designed? So surprises always go up, but that’s actually what ends up happening is in our brains. We don’t put together that on the other side of the coin of our labor, there has to be a buyer. Whether you work on a company, whether you work for somebody, yourself, everything else, every piece of your labor has to have a buyer.

And so what we think is it’s two different forces. We think our houses can go up for. But everything in our lives should come down forever and it’s completely illogical. And so we vote for those two different systems, unaware of what else does to society.

Terry: When I read your book, I sort of understood the thesis. I had an image in my head was two opposing forces, one from above, pushing down one from below, pushing up and in the middle of that I beluga and the balloon getting squashed, squashed, squashed squash, and to the point where it pops. Just explain a little bit more about when you said technology’s deflationary, you know, we’re doing this over online. So you’re saying that technology makes prices cheaper. It means that you do more with less, but we’re living in a system where they actually want prices to continue to go up.

Jeff: Why do they want that? You’d have to ask yourself why do you want it? And that’s actually why it’s really important instead of blaming the system.

Let’s imagine two politicians today. One says, listen, the real market is deflationary. We’ve grown. Money way up here for this long, but all of this is just imagination and made up of peoples that being able to print money. And that means all of the house prices and everything else are imagination too.

They shouldn’t be this high. And that one politician says we’re going to create a free America and all prices are going to reset. And after this chaos, eventually you’ll have way more time and prices going to be down. And technology is going to solve that, but we’re going to have to go through this hellish system.

First, another politician steps up and says, we’re going to fund more medical. We’re going to give you more money. It’s that person’s fault over there. That the reason we going to vote for and you can really simply see it’s has nothing to do with them. It has to do with us. So just you get, when I said misinformation, money, you have politicians completely lying to you because they have to, because you want to listen to a nice.

And I don’t mean you specifically, but there is no fixed from the existing system. And if you went to why Bitcoin is so important, so critically important is that it’s a fixed from a different system. It’s a new network. It’s a bridge to the other side because the existing system has to fail spectacularly in one of two ways, a complete credit crisis that wipes everything out, everything that you think of, you would have no food on your table.

Banks would be closed. All of your money would be gone or an inflationary system where eventually of wheelbarrows full of money. And it won’t buy bread like Germany. Everybody is working in that system that has to fail spectacularly all over the world. And Bitcoin is a bridge to the other side and people don’t realize what’s actually happening because it’s a technology that essentially loses lowered access costs and put them monopoly at risk because of the change, just like all technology Kodak invented the digital.

Where are they today? And how many more photos do you use today than you used? 15 years ago, technology creates abundance and it creates so much value for the people that are using it early and driving it forward that they use it and it creates more and more abundance. And the monopolies very rarely see what’s happening.

It’s a bottom up disruption rather than a top-down disruption.

Terry: So the example you just gave out, I’d love to just hit on that there for a second around why my Germany and luckily got wheelbarrows of cash. And if you said that to me, 12 months ago, I would’ve thought, you know, that’s just extreme. And then the further you look into it, you kind of just realize at some point it’s not, if it happens, it’s just when it happens because no government that’s ever been able to print its own money is defaulted on its debt. So it will always print. It’s why at correct.

Jeff: That is true at the surface, but if you’re not as deep down the rabbit hole, as you are Terry, and some of your audience, they’ll be listening to the news every day or reading the paper every day, and there’ll be reading through that misinformation and they won’t see the longer term pattern that’s emerging of recency bias, even things like create.

Now Japan’s trying to defend rates from spiking and killing everything else. So they’re doing yield curve control their currency down about 27% on a major currency. Losing 27% in four months is a big, big deal. Explain you’ll control essentially saying we’re going to hold interest rates down no matter what we’re going to buy all of the bonds, because if it was a free market buying them, they would never buy them at that point.

And they’re selling bonds because they need money to continue the

spending. So essentially they’re buying their own bonds and destroying their currency as a result. But now when they buy oil, the currency has gone down 27%. The row is 27% more expensive and all of the things are 27% more expensive everything.

And so their economy starts to get into a hyperinflation type of system. Now, as it moves on in Japan is bought $1.3 trillion of us treasuries. They can’t maintain what they’re doing without selling the treasuries of the U S so now there’s pressure on the U S dollar. So the U S has to fund its own instead of having Japan fund USS to roll over that by printing their own.

So this is a global phenomenon. And there’s no way to fix it from the system. It just, it’s intertwined all over and country by country, by country will fail as a result of what we’re talking

Terry: about. And this is where there’s this kind of massive come to Jesus moment for me at some point where your previous perceptions around what you’re told about this space, you know, Bitcoin’s a Ponzi scheme and everything you just described to me sounds a lot like a Ponzi scheme.

Jeff: It is. If you go down to the sand on all of it, it requires who gets depressed about button. And essentially by pressing a button, if your labor rate is stored in your currency, everything you were told and you saved a hundred thousand dollars and it took you 20 years to save a hundred thousand dollars for 15 years to save a hundred thousand dollars and somebody gets suppressed about, and then destroy your 20 years of labor.

That’s what the entire economy is based on. And if they will, they have to yeah. One of the

Terry: way, right? Cause it’s the alternative is what you said before. Let it all burn to the ground so that it cleans itself. People don’t want that. They

Jeff: want. Why do you think you get more and more people rising up, but they’re rising up and they’re fighting each other and they’re turning against each other on divides of politics without understanding the core thing. That’s driving them to that point in the first place. Yeah.

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Let’s say, if we get paint a picture of what the world should look like, if technology was doing its job, John Maynard Keynes ideas, weren’t clung to like they are, how should we.

Jeff: Yeah, that is the crazy thing. You would probably be working 10 hours a week, or average would person would be working 10 hours a week and they would have more than less.

And he would constantly forever prices would fall everything and the free market would continue to drive them to fall. On top of Bitcoin. That’s actually, what’s going to happen. People who are looking at their coin price, going up forever are looking at it wrong. What it actually is all prices against Bitcoin will fall forever because that’s a better way to look at it again, to pull people out of their bias.

You just do a thought experiment and say, if economics was about value, then the most valuable thing in your life should be the most expensive. What’s the most valuable thing in your life. Probably the oxygen you breathe next, store your water. Why is it free? Because it’s everywhere because it’s abundance.

Why is the calculator app on your phone? Because there’s no economic value for somebody to create a new calculator app. Like, go look on your app store. It’s not because of advertising is because it’s a line of code that creates abundance. Why is it essentially your, all your photography for you today?

It’s the same thing. And that abundance creates abundance in our lives. And by the way, if you have a system operating the opposite of that system, then that has to steal that abundance from us and transfer it to a small group of people. So what the world would look like under that system is prices would continue to fall on everything forever.

And in other words, what technology is supposed to do save your time, saves your time. Yeah. And I’ve

Terry: got a theory on this. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it when I’m going back. And I’m really understanding central banking, how it came to pass. And John Maynard Keynes is kind of ideas and how they came to be so pervasive.

You know, you look at the first big credit crash in 1929, and we had deflation to a level. So this is not the flashing you’re talking about. This is not productive deflation. This is monetary deflation to a point where it makes no sense to produce anything, then nobody has any work. And so I feel like it’s almost like a trauma that we’ve held on to it’s like crosses cannot go down because if they do the world’s going to end.

Right. But there’s no nuance in that perspective because what you’re talking about is not the same.

Jeff: So when you doing the two forces from above and below on the balloon, think about it this way. It has been, remember when I wrote the book three years ago, you could predict how much printing was going to come in by the exponential rate of technology deflation.

You could forecast both because it’s just a math function because it has to offset. It has to up that. So imagine two would look like this early on technology, moving slowly through life and offsetting currency manipulation, just offsetting that and having to expand over time. So what you would find is what I said before, early in that cycle, when technology is moving slower, you have currency reevaluations or destructions every 500 years like Roman gums, as technology moved faster and faster, it would be over 150 years.

And then it would be over a hundred years. And now it’s every 50 years. Remember the U S currency failed in 1971 and you’ve had the petrodollars system on top of that. So it’s 50 years. So these things are moving faster and faster and fast.

Terry: Okay. So he said a couple of things very quickly there that I want to explain.

The first thing he said was the U S currency filed in 1971. What do you mean by that? Well, what he means is in 1971, that’s when president Nixon took the us dollar off the gold standard. So prior to 1971, we were all under the impression that a dollar of money, a dollar note represented an amount of gold.

And after that, it actually didn’t represent anything. It was detached completely from the concept of gold. So that’s when money and credit basically decoupled and then credit became money. So, whereas before we knew what a dollar meant, we actually didn’t know what a dollar meant now. And so that was essentially a soft default.

It was essentially America saying we actually cannot pay our debts. And so what we’re going to do is we’re just going to use the debt as money from this point forward. Now I’m simplifying, that’s the big point that he’s trying to make. So then what happened was when everyone was freaking out. And the why they got everybody to accept the us dollar as the global reserve, which is basically the dollar and everything’s priced against globally was to go to Saudi Arabia where all the oil was created inside of them.

We will protect you if you price your oil in us dollars. And so oil is the engine of industry, right? So now everybody’s having to price the engine of industry in us dollars. And so what that did was it encouraged everybody to use us dollars as the global reserve currency. And it created a massive demand for us dollars.

And so that’s, what’s kind of protected the U S dollar after they essentially defaulted and said, we can’t pay out debts. They did this funky move. And then all of a sudden said, okay, we’re going to have to accept it and make sure that that’s the, you know, the universal currency moving forward. So all of that happened before.

Short period of time, but it had massive implications for the system that we’re now in, because it basically meant that there was some level of discipline with a gold standard. You couldn’t print too much credit money because it would pretty much show up that it wasn’t real. Whereas when there was no gold behind it, you can print them out as much money as you would like.

And so that’s why we went from a hard currency, standard gold to an easy money. And that’s when inflation started to take off. And that’s when you see asset pluses starting to rise, and that’s when this whole system got up and going. Um, and what Jeff’s saying essentially is, you know, technology is actually increasing at the same time and it’s making a hotter and hotter for those prices to increase because technology frees our time.

And actually it helps us do more with less. And that actually makes prices drop. So while you don’t pay for a torch anymore, because you’ve got a torch in your phone, you got a camera in your phone, you got a messaging device on your phone, you’ve got a radio on your phone, all these things going into one piece of technology that before would’ve cost multiple thousands of dollars.

And he would have had to go and get them from a bunch of different places. So technology does that for us, but we’re existing in a system where the prices have to keep rising because it’s all credit.

Jeff: And so the 1929 example you’re using the depression was caused by debt that couldn’t get paid back. And that’s what people misunderstand.

It wasn’t correlation versus causation. And so today you have the debt cycle way up here. It has to keep on expanding like this, and you have technology moving faster than. And actually they’re both reinforcing each other because any entrepreneur realizes the only way to get free pill, to buy things for me is to automate my thing and Griff so much value faster to remove labor.

And as that price comes down in the market, there needs to be more offsetting. So now you’re way out here. So you’re this jaws of death that have opened up here and now a credit contraction, letting the economy fail falls from here to here. That’s that way. And that’s what happened in 1929. And then once you’re in 1929 and the debt has to be reset, then a whole bunch of re-engineering on missing.

What caused it all to where we are now, that cycle would not happen. If you just had productive economy, driving prices down, you’d still have fear and greed. So, but you wouldn’t have manipulation of money. If people took big losses because of greed, they wouldn’t be able to socialize those losses to everybody else on a system like Bitcoin.

Terry: Uh, well, that’s what I find crazy about that sort of example, of the 1929 was essentially we used the cause as the cure. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Jeff: It’s great.

Terry: From that point forward. Well, let’s just keep using the cause

Jeff: we write a whole bunch of books on using the causes of cure and yeah, it was crazy

Terry: something else I want to hit on and it’s the problem of our generation is climate change.

And something that you’ve said repeatedly is it is inconsistent to have a system that’s inflationary

and try to solve climate change from this system. Can you talk more about that? Because I do feel like if more people understood this., there would be a lot deeper look into a alternate system

Jeff: wouldn’t there.

Yeah. And they’ll eventually understand this, but I asked bill gates on Twitter, publicly and Al gore and bunch of others, how it is you could solve ESG or climate from a system that has to manipulate money to grow forever. And they have 2 million views and not an answer. This is why. So if technology is trying to free up.

Yet we’re manipulating money. So we all have to work two or three jobs to ever be on a route. We chose to work harder and higher, higher product that we need more production, more consumption, more jobs forever. And it has to keep going. Otherwise the jaws of death, right. Fail the entire system.

So that system problem cannot be solved from the system. And nobody, again has come to me with, with the plausible, how that system could be solved. Now, remember, I’m also an investor in lots of different technology companies in the environmental space that what’s coming drives so much energy, abundance, removal, plastic from the oceans, replacing plastic with kelp.

That is way better for the environment, but every single one of them, the only way they work is if they drop price a lot. So now as they drop the price about it, You have to print more money to make prices go up. Every one of those things is offset by a monetary printer that keeps us all on a mouse wheel to go out forever.

And if you overlaid the monetary policy with climate change, you would see the rate of monetary easing matches pretty well. The climate change or carbon on the atmosphere, which is pretty logical because people think why our oil prices as high. And I think about things like that, but they don’t realize that well, prices have had a whole bunch of technology as well.

It’s easier to store transport technology. We don’t use the same people, power in all of these as we used to. And there’s more and more energy coming on all the time to the grid. So you’d think with all of the abundance and energy coming on and the technology powering it, why haven’t toil price has gone down or oil prices are, have to go up because monetary policy requires them to.

Terry: That’s the great con of our time. I think everyone that I know is convinced we’re all using too much energy and it’s all us, whether it’s bad sort of people, or we’ve got to do all these different things. And like, if you look at societies, they flourish. When we use more energy, it’s the kind of energy that we use.

It’s not that we need to use less. The problem that you’re talking about is the actual problem,

Jeff: two things. So the number one, a system problem, can’t be solved from the system. So that’s the problem that we’re talking about at the highest level. There is no way to solve ESG. If you care about ESG through the system environment, pretty easy to see what I just said is caused by the system.

Social, what are we looking at in social disruption, right? From the system governance, you have cheating based into the base model of. What do you think’s going to happen when cheating is based into the base bottle money, you’re going to have governance problems all over. So ESG is just such a farce from the system.

And I care a lot about those three things. They’re just unsolvable from a system that actually is creating them, but a deeper level. Now, the second level that you’re talking about is how could Bitcoin solve that beyond a monetary policy that you can’t change the rules on and allows the abundance gain from technology to be broadly transferred to humanity, besides that people should look at a car to chef’s scale.

It’s where our society is. An energy use is you could essentially chart out how advanced that society is, who we’re about four orders of magnitude or 10,000 times the energy needed to get to a Kurdish of type one planet, where we would harness all the energy from our local Sutton. Bitcoin provides that trend position mechanism, the pricing metrics.

To be able to get there because it’s not about energy. It’s about how do you gain energy at what’s the economic value of that energy and Bitcoin mining actually prices. And it’s an incentive to capture more clean green energy. Well, it fixes the system.

Terry: Talk about that mechanism. Why is it an incentive to process energy properly?

Jeff: Oh, it was an example in BC where I am. And so BC government brought a dam online called sight-see all the cost for that dam had to be paid back, but they had too much energy in the grid with all the other dams and everything else. So they curtailed all of it. So pricing went up, so it was not about energy and all of that is super clean energy.

And so they curtailed it. So pricing would go up. So they had the funding to be able to pay, or they had the capital or the payment mechanism to pay the high pricing, to be able to pay the, for the. And that’s all becomes so they can centralize energy distribution. Ben BC, you have BC hydro, which is a crown corporation.

That’s trying to do this instead of a free market of energy. It’s chasing the lowest cost, best energy Bitcoin mining. Now can provide an incentive for that clean green energy when it’s not in use, instead of curtailing it, it prices it. And so it, it expands, it, it expands it everywhere. And by doing so, it actually reduces the need for fossil fuels and other things over time.

Because now you’re expanding that energy, whole of the world, you’re actually creating an energy infrastructure off of the back of that coin mining.

Terry: And it prices that energy because when it’s excess, it will buy it.

Jeff: Correct.

Terry: So it’s like, we, you are producing too much, but you can pay these guys. But what we’ve got right now is almost like a debate is cooperation with diamonds.

We’re going to hold back all these diamonds. So you’ve got to pay more for the ones that you get.

Jeff: Exactly. It’s a monopoly control system. The price higher prices makes more money. Yeah.

Terry: So we keep it in an efficient as possible. We keep as much away from you. So you have to pay more for it. You got to work harder, you got to pay more for something that you really

Jeff: shouldn’t and now think, think through some of the implications of that student.

Now, sometimes even how we think about the grid system for cities is going to change pretty radically because technology again, in 1980, it cost about 25,000 to $50,000, depending on what you used to take a kilogram into space. Elan’s mass new rocker coming out in 2024 will cost $200 per kid. Twenty-five to 50,000 to $200.

So what that does is instead of having phone cables everywhere around, around now you have the satellites, they can bring communication. Now that communication and now energy, you can be off grid and on-grid anywhere in the world. And you can have all these little clusters. And by the way, we’re living in a more and more globally connected world all the time.

By very nature of this phone call and answer, you’re able to move anywhere and be connected to the world. Like you would be in a city before. And remember the first thing we talked about on how we were super computers as we were to network together, why the greatest cities were also more vibrant is because we didn’t have the digital transformation to be as vibrant outside of the major cities.

It was actually a denser supercomputer is what it would look like. But the requirement for that denser seat supercomputer of all of us was centralized energy coming in. And that’s breaking down. That model will change.

Terry: No, I really have it. Does he kinda sound the way it’s going right now? I think it’s very against humanity.

The way it’s going. People are convinced that they’re the problem and that we’ve got to be using less energy in it.

Jeff: And again, for the people that listening or not kinda on Bitcoin yet, or they’ve been an altcoins or they think cryptocurrency and Bitcoin are the same thing, they’re totally very different things.

And a simple way to look at Bitcoin versus all the other cryptos is you can solve three parts of a triangle in blockchain, decentralization, security, and scalability. And what Bitcoin did is solve decentralization and security. It’s Bulletproof de-centralization is designed into the product. And so there’s no throat to choke, but it left open a window for a whole bunch of other alt coins to solve scalability at this cost of decentralization or.

And so what you see on all these all coins that eventually go to zero, but they can scale really fast. I can build other things on top of them, but what people don’t realize is they’re building on top of quicksand and all of those eventually go to zero. Whereas now Bitcoin, through the lightning network and Tara, which just is coming, is now you solve scalability on the second layer of Bitcoin, which moves down to the primary layer.

You’re going to have an, just an incredible explosion of entrepreneurs building on top of this network. And it looks a lot like the internet did in 1997. And so owning Bitcoin is like owning a piece of the internet. And so all of the value on top, remember nobody could buy a piece of the internet. They could buy the companies on top of the internet, but they couldn’t buy a piece of the internet and owning the Bitcoin is actually like buying a piece of the internet and all of the value will accrue some of it to the Bitcoin through that network.

But there was a. You’re going to be an explosion of new companies on top of that network that are going to be building on it in the coming months, years. And what’s exciting about that is hard to understand Bitcoin, because if you tried to teach people TCP IP in the nineties, they would be similarly confused.

Yes. And they wouldn’t have understood that the internet changed everything. They wouldn’t have understood until they were using YouTube, Google, Facebook, iPhone on top of that network. And so the products that are about to be built on top of that, that are going to blow people’s minds and they won’t have to understand the complexity of what we’re talking about right now.

But that whole thing, if you don’t own Bitcoin right now in a hard wallet, do your own research, but get off this podcast and go and buy some Bitcoin, put it in a hard wallet.

Terry: I just think get off

Jeff: rock. Like you’re taking a huge risk if you don’t.

Terry: Thank you. Sign that. I think it’s so important that people just get off zero.

So you’re starting to understand. Yeah. Because not understanding it as he said, it’s the biggest risk. And it’s also the greatest opportunity that you might have, because as you just said, this is the base layer of the next, why that money works, that information system that the world’s going to eventually have to come to, to get out of the current system.

Then if you are owning that base layer, you’re essentially diversified through everything that sits on top of it. So I’m seeing a lot of people coming to me saying, yeah, but I’m just going to get in and buy a bunch of diversification through these altcoins. And I’m going to get my diversification through that.

And I’m saying, if you want to be diversified own the foundation, because everything that’s built on top, you get to participate in the growth of everything. Am I explaining that well

Jeff: enough? Oh, you’re explaining it really well. It’s just, what’s hard to see is these people are inside us. Yeah. That is getting more and more unfair all the time.

And as you print money, it will create a whole bunch of pretend, wealth, really fast, fast, hot money. And it’ll hold a bunch of scams in that as well. And then they say, oh, I can make more money over here. And they don’t realize they’re actually keeping themselves in a system and they’re going to get wiped out.

Whereas if they took, I think the most safe bet in the world we live in today is probably the most enriching as well. Yeah.

Terry: I would definitely encourage people to listen or read that Bitcoin behind the veil, because what it does is it actually creates a thought experiment that detaches you from your own bias.

And it helps you think about what’s best for everyone and the, as the average person in two different realities. And when you look at the comparison between the current reality and a reality that that would provide it’s actually. How different that looks

Jeff: so really as they’re two totally different systems, just like technology and inflationary, monetary system, they have to be two different systems.

Oh, I think

Terry: it’s going to be interesting to them. I would love to just hit on a couple of big objections. I just keep seeing them rolled out. And the biggest one I hear is, yeah, Bitcoin’s all well and good. But governments are just going to make us use central bank, digital currencies. And that’s the end game for Bitcoin.

What do you say to that?

Jeff: Yeah. So what I say is a couple things. So if the government is saying that they’re going to ban Bitcoin, then they’re screaming at you on why you need it. If you could listen to this entire podcast and you could say, okay, how does the system operate? And then you realize the central bank digital currency essentially is way more control.

It’s actually it’s surveillance disguised as money. And once you’re in that system, if there was no way out of assess. Would that mean would presuppose as you’re going to have to trust somebody at the top to never change their mind or otherwise you’re trapped in that system. It’s the ultimate centralization.

Moreover is bigger. This just even in the question, you automatically do it in the question you say those people in those big corporations control me. And I’m just upon, we elect our leaders, at least right now we do heads, our thoughts, our ideas, our imagination, that directs a future. And I would say, if you want a better future than you should spend your time creating a better future.

And instead of staying in a system where that you’re giving more power to the system. So if you say that, if you say that you’re ultimately giving up to a system that will control. Instead of using near time to change the system, every single person who’s going on to Bitcoin, whether they know it or not 140 million people strong and growing exponentially, whether they know it or not, they’re actually building the bridge for way more people to come across.

And they’re changing society’s path that humanity’s path as a result.

Terry: How do you think that’s going to play out? Because I definitely think if I’m in control and I want to maintain, control, even increase it at this time, I’m going to be pushing this kind of thing. If I’m governments and Arik and over the next five years, we’re going to be saying this a lot.

So how do you see it playing out? Like, is it, are we going to compete with this and eventually wins out they gonna exist together? What do you think?

Jeff: So every government’s going to make its own choice in its own time. But if you just take a look at what ends up happening on a typical monopoly, the people most benefited from an monopoly or the latest.

The people most hurt by that monopoly or the earliest to change. And through that lens, you would see why El Salvador and now the Central African Republic are now on Bitcoin and more and more countries are going to join all the time and more and more people are going to join us all the time, because it gives them freedom from the system.

So when you decide to move or when any country decides to move is ultimately going to determine how much of that new network you have and how much influence you have, but it won’t change. The order of this. Governments will try to stop it. But if you realize that the only way they can stop, it is a removal of your individual rights and freedoms in favor of theirs.

You start to go, why would anybody want to stop and open monitoring network that gave abundance to the world? And inside that question, you go, huh? It’s just control. Yeah. A hundred percent,

Terry: a hundred percent. Another one that I’m seeing a lot come up is Warren Buffett, bill gates and Charlie Munger of old.

Stay away from this it’s rat poison. How do we get through this? I’ve got my own thoughts on this, but I would love to hear you because I’m just, this is just parroting. And I’ll say this, if you asked me a year ago, I would’ve said the same thing. I would just want a paradigm what I said, but the further I’ve gone into this and understood the incentive structures and how they built their own wealth really does make you think.

Well, kind of does explain why they’re being, I think pretty responsible because I never qualify their claims. They just tell you what’s bad and evil. And I didn’t tell you why, what do you say to

Jeff: that? The same Upton Sinclair at never ask a man to, what does it say? Tell you the truth about where they’re suddenly about where their money comes from.

Um, if their income

Terry: depends on them, not figuring it out, they won’t figure it out.

Jeff: Exactly. And so, and not all of it because they’re entrepreneurs too, but it’ll give you a Warren buffet example because many of your listeners wouldn’t know, know this, but in 2008, he made a crazy deal for preferred shares and Goldman Sachs and Goldman Sachs would have gone.

Had this loss has not been socialized to society and Goldman Sachs couldn’t access tarp, but two weeks after he made this terrific investment and it would’ve gone, Prague, Goldman Sachs became a bank and now they had access to government money. And all of Gordon Buffett’s bats became worth tens of billions of dollars.

And that came out of the expense of all taxpayers because that money was made up and be able to do that. Also at the same time, he had derivatives that would have unwound his entire corporation and those derivatives, it would’ve lost. Everything, had a bet not come in to save the system. So when you are at the top of a system and you benefit from the top of that system and you get richer and richer, and from that same system at the expense of others, it might be really easy not to see how those others could actually be.

How a fair game helping those others might be at odds with where you want to go

Terry: quick one here, the top that he just mentioned is the troubled asset relief program. That was a part of the government’s kind of rescue package in 2008. And so what he’s essentially saying here is that Warren buffet pretty much cold.

The fed reserves bluff and said, well, I know they’re going to bail out these banks. So if I come in and buy all these shares cheap, and then I’m going to be able to rod this whole thing all the way up. And what he’s essentially saying is yes, he was able to do that and you’ll be hired as the savior, but actually it was the average person that ended up paying the bill for all that.

So probably shouldn’t celebrate him as much as we do. That’s a brutal truth. It was like killing Bambi. When I started to figure out it’s the way, it’s the way he’s positioned himself, the way he’s talked about and the way, you know, the images. I’m finding it very disappointing at the moment.

Jeff: Um, yeah. It’s like when Lance Armstrong at coffer doping and drugs, same thing, you’re like, that’s one thing in Bitcoin that they never trust your hero.

So it doesn’t require a hero it’s assessing them. But in what you’re asking, it actually says, unfortunately, what I said before about humans, desire will cheat. If they can control a system for the benefit of themselves, that they expensive others, they will. It’s just throughout history. You see that. So he, you have to take that system away from kind of, if you’ve heard of the two wolves, which one you feed.

Yeah. It gets stronger. You have to take that away from humanity’s worst and put it in a new system. And by putting that ability in a system that’s incorruptible, then you get to see the best in humanity instead of the worst in here.

Terry: Yeah, that’s a good point. I’m also reminded of a quart bill James, who was the guy who disrupted baseball and stats and all that, you know, the Moneyball.

And he said about the experts. He said they weren’t thinking. Cause they thought they knew. And I see that a lot. Right. I’m talking to finance experts and you can just see, they think they know and they’ve closed. They’re already closed their mind. And then when you ask them, what do you know about it? They give you nothing.

Jeff: Yeah, I know. And that’s the same thing when I said in my book and why you can be so sure you’re right here is when you look at the arguments against Bitcoin, none of them stand up. Like

Terry: if you look at Bitcoin for two minutes, it’s easy to dismiss it. If you look at it for two years, you will, will not dismiss it.

Jeff: Exactly. You asked about things that people hear. That here’s one that I hear often that is a miss. You move all this wealth and power from one system to another system. Yes. And what they don’t realize is on Bitcoin, on a system like this, if you try to gain wealth and power, because you can’t socialize losses.

If you try to gain wealth and power through coercion, like the existing system or manipulation, like the existing system, what that means is hiring a whole bunch, more people by hiring a whole bunch of people to try to course people or manipulate people. You distribute, you pick one and you lose your power.

So what they haven’t recognized is the systems work completely differently and removes that ability from human nature.

Terry: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that one up. Cause I did want to touch on that and that’s one that I say a lot. You’re just saying that you should get this because you want me to buy in underneath you.

So you become wealthy and it creates different inequality. So I’m not going to be your soccer. Yeah, totally. You’re like,

Jeff: dude. All right. Yeah. And it’s just because they’re in a system that actually works the way they think the system does and this one works exactly the opposite. Yeah.

Terry: One last thing I want to touch on before I ask you what advice you would give to young people.

We’re obviously seeing everything. I mean, interest rates going up. And we’re saying everything go down in unison correlated. Cause it’s all a big liquidity bubble. Yep. Well, I think a lot of people are looking at this space, maybe you’re open-minded and you’re saying, oh, it is a bubble and it’s popping right now.

So I’m glad I’m not doing it. Is that the right way to look at this right now? Here’s

Jeff: a way to look at it. And it probably a simple way to look at it for everybody else. And I would encourage everyone to go online. Google, how much money is a million dollars, a billion dollars in Australian dollars. And look at the Google image that shows up.

And what you’ll realize is you cannot comprehend a trillion dollars versus a billion dollars in a million dollars. You will not be able to comprehend the difference. So when people say big numbers, like we’re only going to print $20 trillion, you get super confused unless you look at that image and say, oh, that was easy for me.

You will get super confused. The order of magnitude of the money. Here’s a way to simplify that equation in your brain. And for everybody that’s listening, let’s say there’s 8 billion people on the plane. And out of all of the wealth, there’s, there’s 8 billion of total wealth balance sheet on the planet.

And out of the 8 billion of total wealth and planet, you have a hundred dollars. If they increase the money supply to 16 billion and your wealth, didn’t go up to $200. You’ve lost ground. If they triple, quadruple quintuple and you haven’t tripled crude or bullpen trouble, you’ve lost ground. So it actually takes some money equation out of this, to understand you’re measuring with a different ruler.

Now, if that 8 billion went to 4 billion and about balance sheet and your a hundred dollars went to 50, you’re exactly the same. And that’s what we’re dealing with right now. And it removes all of the, how much are they going to print? How much are they going to decline? Because you’re outside of that system.

And essentially what’s going to happen is you can divide the entire wealth of the world today. It’s call it $750 trillion. By 21 million Bitcoin. That’s what it’s going to look like and how it looks like that it could fall apart or the world could fall apart. It doesn’t change. Your Bitcoin might change a price and in Aussie terms of your Bitcoin, but it doesn’t change your Bitcoin in the value of everything or the monetary supply could go way up and your purchasing power will constantly go up because everything will fall in price against Bitcoin is probably the best way to look at it.

So right now, when, when Bitcoin is selling off because of fear and overall markets, and there’s a whole bunch of alt coins that have done derivative products on top of that and creating shorts that they need to liquidate now, too, it’s a crazy buying opportunity. I’m not saying it couldn’t fall further, but if it continues to fall further, what you can guarantee is everything else will fall for faster or fall lower than.

Yeah, it’s

Terry: simple way. I kind of think about it and people talk about trying to save to get them a house and that kind of thing. And I’m like, you’re saving in a currency is declining against the house price. Why don’t save in a currency where it’s actually, you can get more house prices are declining against Bitcoin over the last, since it’s existed.

And if you look at house prices versus Fayette, why

Jeff: would you save in that? So my house price in Bitcoin terms went down by half last year.

Terry: Yeah. So it costs you less Bitcoin to buy the same thing. But if you got Fiat, it

Jeff: went up by 50%,

Terry: the suburbs here in Australia and Sydney, where house prices went up $50,000 a month last year.

Well, yeah, just absolutely insane. Yeah. So when you think about it like that, I’m like, why are you defending that? Why would you defend that? It blows my mind. And I think that’s right, like this to me, that’s all I’ve said, people are ringing me. I’m like, this might be the best opportunity you ever get.

Jeff: Yep.

It’s funny. Nobody has been in Bitcoin for very much time. It keeps talking about price. Once they understand that when, when that goes down, they, they buy more because they realize, wow, this is such an incredible opportunity. So, well, some people are really scared of that. The Bitcoiners all they’re buying more.

Terry: Yeah. It’s insane. Lastly, what advice would you give to young people? So we know that we’re going to be dealing with some volatility here over the next couple of years. We know there’s going to be shaky times because of what’s happening with the fed.

And you know, they’re talking about.

 Tightening and the markets are shuttering.

Everything’s going together. Everything’s correlated. What advice would you get people to protect themselves?

Jeff: The world you live in is going to change really fast and it’s going to be really volatile. And you’re going to listen to the news, or you’re likely going to listen to the news and you’re going to get really scared.

And you’re going to give the existing system more power, or you could choose something here. If you get off zero or get off Sierra that say advice, I would give and learn about this system. And once you learn about this system, you’ll realize it’s way more than the welfare of. It is a totally different mindset that you’ll move forward.

And it’s hopeful. It’s based on truth, hope and abundance, free humanity. And it’s really hard not to fall in love, kind of with the people around it and everything else. So if you’re in this thing and you realize this is really, you have two views of the world and one’s getting worse and worse, or you could just step over to the other side and contribute to the one that you want to happen.

That’s how I look at my time and why I like meeting you like meeting people in the community. Cause once you see all the brands and what’s happening in this community, you become really positive on where we’re going and as a human race.

Terry: Yeah. I feel exactly the same. Why, and I would love your advice on this.

So I’m a little bit skeptical of my own hope because I feel like hope is a little bit blind as well as blind as fear. Is that the right way to think about it or should it actually just lean into the hub?

Jeff: I think we all spend our time. You create the world. Through your time and actions and we all do.

And a really simple example. If you believe you’re a victim, nobody can tell you different because everything that you’ll find in the world will make sure that you believe you’re a victim and you’ll be powerless to solve up and is really hard to change that for somebody, if you believe you’re capable, it’s a very different mindset in both realities, both different mindsets, create the both different people’s reality that they see it at same for this.

I’m not saying ignore the risks or anything else, but that’s actually why I’ve gone so far down the sand on all of these different systems and everything else is because if I want to just spend my time here, I wanted to know that the time was worthwhile, but once making that decision a time worthwhile.

Then it’s a really easy decision. I’m going to spend more of my time here because it’s really valuable for my time to be spent there. And so that’s kind of how I look at it. I’m not saying don’t do your work to understand what Terry, you understand everything else, but once you’ve done your work, look, if anything is going to change your thesis while always watch, if anything’s going to change your thesis, but I might be open to anything changing your thesis, but well, nothing’s changing that thesis.

Bend your time, creating the world we want to create.

Terry: Yeah. And that’s, I think I had a conversation yesterday. So when I think it was, my brother rang me, he said, what are you thinking? I said, well, the faces hasn’t changed at all. So that just tells me we can get more for less. Yeah. So it turns out the fed and you know, are we’re going to be raising rates and everyone’s saying the world’s going to go shit let’s before we go, I know you’ve been very generous with your time.

We, how would you counsel people around realistic expectations over interest rates and what happens over the next 12 to 24?

Jeff: Something’s going to break in the next three months. And I main break badly whether the economy start shedding jobs and EUS is going to do you have control, but rates are going to come down and they might go up a little bit, but then they’re going to come down and all hell has kind of Bray clothes all over the world on this.

And it could be more proxy wars. It could lead to another type of war, but it’s bound to get chaotic. And so people are going to be living through this and that there might not be groceries on some of the shelves and stuff. I’m not trying to take people down to a really dangerous what happens to society as supply chains, break and countries turn against one another.

I’d rather stay in the hope, but why I care a lot about. Uh, 140 million people turning into a billion people to 2 billion people. The faster that happens, not only do all of those people protect their ability to make choices and could get on the plane and go anywhere they want at any time. Because if they remember 12 words, they can escape anywhere with the go, but they’ve drive society to a transition path that cannot drive from the existing system.

So the existing system has to fail spectacularly like that. And it will. I can’t tell you the exact date. I can tell you something’s going to break. I would suggest within the next three months, something’s going to break. We got striped back to the game again. Imagine how much they have to print again.

Remember the exponential path this way and the exponential path this way. They’re just math functions, matching how much they have to print the next time. Pretend to keep the game going and think about that printing into inflation, what that starts to do. So it changes the rules of the game really fast.

So the cycles that people are saying, oh, how did that happen? So fast how’d that happen? And it feels like the world is getting crazier and crazier and crazier. And those velocity is, is amping up. Expect that to get a lot worse. If your measurement is existing system, expect that a good to get a lot worse

Terry: and you can opt out.

Yep. My thank you so much for your time. As I said, incredibly generous of you and, and, you know, I really do appreciate you coming on and educating us because as I said to you before the episode, there’s a lot more in this for us than there is for you. You don’t need any of this, but

Jeff: let me just say to that, I have gained so much from this community.

I actually cannot believe I get to do what I get to do. So it’s a complete privilege and thanks for having me and I thank you

Terry: so much for coming on my way. Can people learn more about you and your work?

Jeff: You, well, you know, the book, the price of tomorrow, The, you might want to put into the show notes because it probably helps people.

I wrote something two years ago called the greatest game that walks people to where we are in that cycle and why, and then right out of school, just at Jeff Booth on Twitter is probably best.

Terry: Yep. Excellent. And lastly, is there any other people, any other resources, people, if are wanting to now go, all right, well, I’m going to do some more research into this space.

Where would you start

Jeff: so many? Greg FOSS, Lynn Alden, Preston pish. Luke Groman does a bunch of really great research. He’s just starting to come around to Bitcoin, but he’s there’s research has, is phenomenal phenomenon, and I’m going to miss a whole bunch of others, but that’s a good start to follow those people on Twitter and then find out who they follow and you get to all the right.

Terry: Awesome. Something Preston said at the Bitcoin conference was interesting. He said, buy Bitcoin, fall asleep in five years.

Jeff: He’s such a good guy too.

Terry: Yeah. Excellent. Hi, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And I’ll have to chat again soon. You

Jeff: bet. Thanks sir.