In the final episode of their series on ‘business as a vehicle for wealth’ Ryan and Terry pull out their biggest take-homes from the interviews with each mentor. They also give some insight into their own journey into business and how they’re applying the lessons learned in their own business.
If you’ve been listening to the series on business and wondering ‘what now?’ this episode is all about turning insight into action and building confidence to try out ways to turn your ideas into income.
What you'll learn
Ryan: Hi there. Welcome back to the passive income project here with Terry. Great job, bringing on some absolute legends, some impressive business owners in those last few interviews, we’ve got a lot out of it and we
Terry: loved it so much. Good sound wisdom, learned lessons and yeah. Just quality people.
Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And what I’m looking forward to now is wrapping up this business series by really just reflecting on those conversations and thinking about what did we learn from it? Yeah. Every interaction is kind of a chance to learn something. Yeah. And what we always find really valuable, especially when having conversations like this or reading books or learning about something is to, I guess, codify what the principles were that we learned from those people in some way.
And so that’s what we’re looking at, isn’t it. We’re going to kind of go back over those conversations and pull out what we took from. And really just turn that into something a little bit more tangible that we can use to inform future decisions. And I guess the way we go about building our wealth as well.
Terry: Yep. Yeah, I think so. And just so critical when you have a conversation like that, to be able to reflect on it and then think about how does this apply to me. And, uh, yeah, so we’ve gathered information here and there’s been a bunch of good insights, but hopefully today in this episode, we’re going to help you figure out how to get this knowledge, get this wisdom and apply to your own scenario.
And one of the key ways to do. Is to use that wisdom, like you said, codify it into principles we can put into practice. And we’re going to ask some key questions with regards to age insight that are going to help you act on this information.
In order for you to answer this question, you’ll have to act on this information, reflect on it and use it in some way. And the reason we’re doing that is because when you can answer those questions, you removed out and if you removed out, you create progress. That’s what the great Buddha used to say.
Doubt, impedes progress. So when you get on top of that, you actually facilitate progress. So hopefully these questions act as forcing functions for you to start to apply this information.
Ryan: Yeah, I think it’s so critical to write these questions down and write down the answer to them most importantly, because that forces you to put words to it, organize it in your mind and then create some level of.
That comes along with it. So we’ll include these in the show notes, these questions. Why don’t we? Yes, we will. Yep. And then there’s a couple of bonuses at the end too. Isn’t there? Yeah.
Terry: There’s a couple of books that we’re going to recommend that aren’t about gathering knowledge, but they are about building conviction.
They’re going to help you act on this information and it gets you into gear basically. So there’s two books we’re going to recommend. And there’s also a sneaky little challenge that we’re going to put to you at the end as well. That we’d love you to
Ryan: get involved in. And so the whole reason we started this conversation around business, as we mentioned in that first episode is we really do say that as you know, the cheat code, basically for speeding up financial independence.
Yeah. Being able to collapse the time that it takes to reset place that financial Nevada. You’re not necessarily having to try to Tamia talent through obligation. It’s really giving you a lot of that choice about how you spend your time. And we also say that there’s more on offer than just money as well.
We get so much meaning from what we doing. That’s also one alpha. As well as having more control of your time to be able to make a lot more of those freedom choices, much sooner.
Terry: You mentioned that there was a quote that came to mind for you a long time ago. I remember a book you were reading and I think I recommended it, say the 50th.
Ryan: Yep. Do you went fully in session on me? It just planted this idea and I was never able to let this go. And I actually had to dig out my journal from back then where I was like, I documented a lot of these quotes and things that I’d come across. What he said, I don’t know if it was 50 cent or rubbish grain.
It was one of the two, but this is what it was. It was time is the most critical factor in our lives. Our most precious resource. The problem when we worked for others is that so much of it becomes dead time that we want to pass away as quickly as possible, Tom, that he’s not alone. And that one hit me right between the eyes, because I found that when I was working for somebody.
I was wishing to why the dyes, I was hoping for the weekend to come around just that little bit quicker or for this period of time to pass so that I could go traveling or something like that. And so what we experienced on the other side is with our business. You’re just trying to get more of it. You’re like, geez.
I just wish I had more time to spend on that project or add more time in the day for these things. Not necessarily because Tom feels more scarce. It’s just that you want to get more out of you, Tom. It doesn’t feel like that dead time. Have you found that? Yeah.
Terry: And I think that’s something in just that control of time is such a huge, huge element for wellbeing.
If you own your day, that’s already a level of wealth that’s available to you right now that most people don’t have, even if they’re earning lots of, lots of money, if they don’t own that time, they’re not as wealthy in that sense. And, and for me, that’s the biggest gain that you can get from this whole thing.
If you can get up and you can own your day, you’re already halfway there because like we said, Tom, isn’t, I’m one resource and this is a way that you can own control more of your time. Contribute at your highest level and get compensated really well for it. And that’s the whole opportunity that is business.
Ryan: Yeah. I love that. And so if you enjoyed this series on business, but you’re thinking this is all great, but what do I do with this info, then this episode’s about really pulling out what to do next
Terry: with it. Right? Action. Tsongas action song.
Ryan: Love it. All right. So first conversation we had was Ray coffin.
What did you learn from that? For
Terry: me, one of the most important things he said, or an idea that could have came through for me was before you jump, if you know you’re going to jump and you’re going to make a move, see if you can get paid to build the skills you’re going to need in the new venture. And the critical one that he talked about was going out and knowing how to build websites, but not actually knowing how to generate demand.
So you got a few clients and he thought I’m off to the races here, bugging you I’ve done. And then you realize, hang on, I’ve fulfilled all that work. And now I’ve got no money. So I think what he’s insight was was if I had my time, again, what I would have done was gone work in an agency, build some of those skills around generating demand.
And that would have helped me a lot when I’m on my own yet
Ryan: audit gray with that one as well. I think we probably agree that there were a lot of skills that we wished we’d learned while we were still on somebody else’s dime as well. Like just in terms of even outside of hours, not necessarily taking advantage of that situation, but having a bit more structure around learning.
How to build the attraction side of your business, add to create marketing content and things like that. And we essentially did do this in some ways, like we were building up our own skills in different ways. Obviously I was working in financial advice and you with management consulting was probably even more of a concerted
Wasn’t it very deliberate for me. When I left sport, I kind of profiled myself and I said, well, these are the skills I have. This is the knowledge I have the gap between me making use of that knowledge is being able to package it and give it to some. And so how do you do that? Essentially? That’s what management consulting is.
You find out what someone’s problem is, and it’s usually something people need to know or know how to do. And then you figure out a way to get those people from a to B. And if you do it well, you get paid and you get paid quite well. If you don’t do it well, you don’t get paid at all. So it was quite a good incentive structure to learn that really quickly and helped me to really consolidate everything on learning in and understand how to make a use of it and give it to other people in a different way or in different context
The key principle there is before you jump, get paid to build the skills, if possible. And the big question to go with this and something to think about what your answer to this, but bay definitely write something down is what skills do you have and what skills do you need to get going? Create a bit of structure like you did profile yourself when you go, what do I need to know?
What do I need to learn? How can I speed up that? Not necessarily about mastering it before you get there, because we’d learned that the best way to learn is to actually learn something while you’re doing it while you’re implementing it to speed up that learning as opposed to just from doing it for the,
I think that’s a really important distinction to make. We’re not talking about going out and reading 35 books. What we are talking about is seeing if you can put yourself in a position where you’re immersing yourself in bandwidth or build this skill set. Uh, much more valuable than reading books on communication and packaging knowledge was going out and figuring out how to do it.
And the feedback for me was people’s actually their sentiment. Then also the. I’ll be getting more money, more opportunities coming to me because of the work that I was doing. So that spacings up way faster than just reading book after book, like we always say, books are great, but you should read them while you’re trying to solve a problem and be solving that actual problem to find out what’s happening in reality.
Ryan: Yeah. Bryant. Alright. Which takes us to the next one. So another one that I took from this. Selling isn’t a dirty word. It’s how you serve others. Selling doesn’t need to be this. I guess the idea that we holding them on sometimes around pounding the pavement with cold calling and blasting the things in front of everybody’s faces selling is about connecting people to the solutions, to the.
We always talk about that idea of earning income as receiving certificates of appreciation. And that’s exactly it, isn’t it it’s connecting solutions to problems. It’s helping people move forward in some way or overcome something. And they’re showing gratitude in some wide for you doing that. All of the reframe of selling the.
Terry: Yeah, I do the way I think about it as you’re like a doctor or you don’t prescribe something, unless you’ve actually understood the symptoms, the problem that someone’s facing, and then you connect them to a solution. So I think sometimes people get on calls with us and they’re kind of frustrated because we’re asking all these questions and the reason we’re asking the questions is because we want to know.
Uh, you do need what we have. Can we actually help you? And will you be a success story of ours in the future? Because we know that the people that work with us, if they’re a success in the future, then we’re a success. And our success is a by-product of theirs. Theirs has to happen first. So it’s actually a risk for us to take on some.
There’s not likely to succeed working with us in our format and our structure and the way we do it. There are times where we say to people, this is not for you. And that might be because the timing is wrong. That it also might be because they’re looking for something else. I actually really enjoy those conversations.
Cause it’s about deeply understanding what someone’s dealing with and then finding out how it connects to what you have. And if those two things align up and it resonates, that’s like, take one, but take two. Does that person resonate on a kind of worldview? Are they one of us? Do they see the world the same?
And do they kind of move through the world? And if those couple of things line up, I’ll get really excited because I can kind of say, well, in the future, this person just has to go through this process and we know where they’re going to get
Ryan: to. Yeah. I love that. And I’m on a lot of the same in that first conversation.
That’s really the first opportunity to take that role of advisor to say, Hey, I can coach you through what you’re facing right now, which is what actions should I take. It doesn’t need to be salesy at all. It’s just a chance to educate and advise. And so we really say sales. A transfer of energy. Like if you have the right energy around what you do, you will attract those people who resonate those people with that similar worldview.
And ultimately the reason why we do these podcasts, right? So that we can share our energy around what we’re learning and to connect with those people on a scale that allows us to interact with more people and how will people get what they want so that we can get what we need. And it’s like, I know that you love going through a few of those notes for those feedback comments and now notion page before those conversations.
Terry: Every time. Yeah. So before I jump on a sales call, there’s this little section there that says he is client success stories. And I just read through 15 to 20 those success stories. It gives me that kind of purpose where I’m like, This works. Let’s just find out if this person needs what we’re doing here.
And the other thing that I think is really interesting in a sales conversation is when somebody makes the investment it’s half done. If that makes sense, cause you’ve got to make the decision to make the change. And when you make the decision, then all the actions after that follow the decision. And so half of the job he’s actually in that conversation, that’s what gets me so excited about somebody believes in themselves and us enough to be able to invest firstly, their money.
And then it’s. They’re actually halfway there. Now it’s just a process of following the steps and the people that give themselves that permission to do that. They do really well. And I just really enjoy being a catalyst for that first step to
Ryan: bring. And the key question to go with this one is what success stories can give you energy.
So think about who is someone that you can actually serve in some way, have a sale behind. And then connect that success story back to the next sales conversation that you have the opportunity to advise somebody because that energy is obviously so critical, high energy people. You want to do business with them.
You want to work with them. They’re most likely ones that will help you overcome what you’re working on as well. And think
Terry: about, who’s asked you for help in different. What are they asking you for helpful? And that might be where you start. Maybe you’ve got a specialized skill that other people want help with.
That’s where you kind of start with this stuff. And if you’re not sure of what that skill is and how you might trade it and think a level above what you actually do on a day-to-day basis, maybe you’re a manager, maybe you’re good at sort of managing people and managing projects. That’s like a skill that sits above the job of manager.
So how else can you apply that skill and who might want that help from you to keep so like, be open-minded about this part of it. Don’t worry about getting it wrong. All you’re trying to do here is to figure out, can I make money? Can I become my own economic agent? Can I actually facilitate that process myself as opposed to waiting for a.
I started with it. Absolutely worth it. Yes.
Ryan: Spot on. And you’ve got one more day. You want to pull from this conversation with Ray
Terry: Corcoran? Yeah. I reckon this one’s the most powerful one and it’s the only way to file is to quit. And so going back to the rice story, he talked about how he went out and he kind of got excited.
He went out on his own and then he realized he didn’t have the skill of generating demand for your services. And he wasn’t really trying to fill any pipeline. He was just fulfilling the existing demand and then he realized he’d run out of money. And he had to go on back to go and work in a cold calling center.
That was kind of a real gut check. And one of the things really important about that story is he did not say that as a failure, he just saw it as the next thing to figure out the only way for Ryan to be a failure right day is if Ray was still in that cold calling center, doing that thing and accepting that as his fight.
But he didn’t do that. He said, that’s just what I need to learn right now. So I’m going to do this right now because that’s what I have to do, but I’m going to reload. I’m going to go again and I’m going to figure out how to build this skill so that when I go out next. I’m going to sort of level, I’m going to get beyond that level.
It’s almost like you’re in a video game. Right. And you get to some level and you go, oops, I’m not quite there yet. I’ve got to go back again. Try again. That’s exactly how he sees it. It’s a real kind of game mentality. Failure is not fatal. If something didn’t work, it doesn’t matter. That’s just learning for you about a direction or a path that you need to take differently.
So that was such a powerful one. And I think it’s most people’s fear. Right? What if I do go and give this a go and it doesn’t work. What’s going to happen? Well, nothing. You’re going to be fine. You’re gonna be able to figure it out. If you keep. Oh, there’s an
Ryan: incredible amount of ego that gets tied up with you applying yourself to something.
And if that thing doesn’t work out, like we did this with ocean road welfare first entity, if you like, which was financial advice orientated, we went out, we’ve got a law since we started providing financial advice, business model compliance matter, very hard to serve our customers in the right way. For me, it was very hard to accept the reality.
’cause a lot of my identity and the way I saw myself and what I could deliver for people as well was tied up with doing that one thing. And so when you were like, no, let’s try this coaching model. And it felt like failure. It was really hard to kind of untangle myself away from that. But the important thing is you adapt and you change and you learn as you go.
And so, yeah, it’s the difference between seeing it as a failure. And adaptation and being able to move with it and evolve and kind of change and move with the types as well. Like see better opportunities, have a loose grips on your previous ideas as well. Is that what you found?
Terry: I found that easier and I probably wasn’t empathetic enough.
I was just like, come on back, let’s do this, let’s do this. And it was probably just a result of. What I’ve been experiencing with the consulting side of things and understanding that it’s so much easier to sell knowledge than it is to exist in this kind of framework where everything’s kind of tick box and nothing’s customer like kind of make out, like things are customized, but actually just kind of fitting people into boxes and giving them the solutions so that you can protect your own backside, basically.
So for me, I was kind of more excited about it than anything else. I really didn’t see a long-term future in that space for me. And I was just kind of gone. What if we tried.
Ryan: So perfect. And that probably just shows how critical it is to have somebody that helps you reframe some of those things where I could say it as a, a bit of a failure on my part because of the ego and the sunk costs that existed with that as well.
And so you were able to help loosen my grip on that for sure. What’s the key question that you pulled out from this that would help somebody take action and organize their thoughts on this?
Terry: The key question here is how would you know for sure that this is not going to be. What is the criteria. And the reason this is important is because it can feel like you’re filing all the talk when it comes to this stuff, right?
You don’t get, you put something out there. It doesn’t work. Maybe you do a post about how you’re going to try to help people in this way now. And you don’t even get one lock. The feeling is that I’m filing, but that is not a fact. So I think one of the most important things you can do before you do any of this stuff is go, what are the facts that would tell me for sure.
This is not what. And if it’s not a fact, and if what you’re feeling has nothing to do with that fact, let it pass and keep going, go back to Ray’s example and tell yourself the only way to find ways to quit. You want to separate how you’re feeling with what’s actually going on because it’s a smart thing to do to quit sometimes, but it’s not smart to quit because 35 people didn’t like your post and you didn’t get a customer.
That’s not smart. So I think that’s a really important question to ask yourself, write down the criteria for that. And when you feel like things, aren’t going well, go back to those facts and say, does this line up with any of those, if not, carry on, try something else.
Ryan: Is that facto feeling bloody hard sometimes to separate those two, but yeah, definitely asking those questions is cake, which then brings us to lucky Smith.
So one of the big ones I took from this, which kind of links back to what I was saying before around some of the stuff around. What that was, is be solid on your goals, but loose on the means by which you get there. And so you want to be spending the time really thinking about the experience you want to have in the future.
Like, what does that business need to do? What does that need to look like? Who does it need to serve? What role do I want to play in it? How can it get bigger and growing beyond yourself as well, but be loosely. What that path between now and then looks like going back to what we were saying before. We were very clear on the experience of wanting to create for ourselves and the why that we wanted to serve our people.
And what that meant was at helped us make that transition. We’re able to drop that loss and go, okay, let’s try a different model. Let’s try a different vehicle for serving these same people and that’ll help us serve these signed people, but give us a different experience as well of it’s on them. It gives them a lot more.
And so if we were holding very tightly onto the means, then we would have startled ourselves, but because it will clear on the angle and that was our magnet and it allowed us to be a little bit more flexible and dynamic as we went along the way. Is that what
Terry: you found? Yeah, definitely. I think if we weren’t really clear on that, it was obvious within the first six months that the why we wanted to help people was not congruent with the system and the framework that we’re in and probably what helped us.
Okay. When never going to be able to help people, the why we want to help them in this situation. So what is the next one? What is a different way to think about it? And yeah, like you say, without that, without kind of thinking through that, then I think that we could very well still be doing it the old way.
Ryan: Yeah. The key question and kind of alluded to it just before, but what does this business need to do for you? Your loved ones and your customers?
Terry: Yeah, I think it’s a really important question, but it feels like a really deep question and it feels like you have to have the right answer. You probably don’t need to worry too much.
In the beginning. You just want to get into the process of earning, finding a customer, serving that customer had gone through the process, but it’s important when you do start to sort of zero in, on an area or a place where you want to apply your time and talent, then these questions becomes really important.
What does this business, I want to turn it into a business now, what does it need to do for me? And the reason this question starts with you. He’s because it’s going to be impossible for you to serve other people. If you can’t get what you want along the way. Right. So you can’t stop yourself on the widest, serving others.
You actually have to be enriched through the process of enriching others. So you have to kind of start with that and go, what would make this absolutely worth it for me? And is this a problem with pursuing, and then when you think about the impact of that for you, the people you care about and then the impact you want to have on the people you’re trying to serve, that really does help you get that clear.
Ryan: Perfect. So be solid on your goals, but loose on the means by which you get there. That was a really strong one. How about you? What did you learn from that conversation?
Terry: You don’t have to know everything before you get started back yourself to learn as you go and just realize that businesses and it’s sort of problem solving process that happens from the ground up.
And it’s not a top down process. You learn about visit score, where they’re like sit at the 55 page business plan and go forward from there. Now it’s important to plan. But if you get stuck in that planning process and you don’t start acting, you aren’t gather any insight or you like you won’t gather any intelligence.
Remember what we said? Last episode, don’t gather information at the expense of gathering intelligence to planning matters, but don’t over invest in that the sequence is set yourself a target, go out, build the skills, learn the lessons, use that OODA loop that we talked about in the last episode. And then reap the rewards.
Repeat the process, repeat the process, repeat the process, keep learning, keep iterating course, correcting towards the goals. The big clear goal that you set in the beginning. So for us, we’re really clear on what we’re trying to accomplish in the business and we figure out how we’re going to do that along the wire.
Right? So a target that I have every month for the last full month is how do we get to 10 K downloads every month on the podcast? And how are we gonna do. I don’t know what I set the target, but by setting the target, I start to learn. Okay. Cause I’m starting to pay attention to what we’re doing, the inputs and the outputs.
And that helps me to start to calibrate my thinking around where we should put our time, attention and effort. And here’s what I’ve learned. The most powerful thing that we can do to get that 10 K download target up really quickly is to get on other people’s podcasts. We can do what other podcasts have done and like put out a podcast every day.
But what we do is we risk alienating the people you. You listen, because hopefully you get some real value from us every time you listen. And if we try to just be superficial and stay on top of things and just put something out every day. So it looks like, but here we are again. And here we are. Again, we actually lose you as our audience.
We want to play the long game. We want to keep building a bigger audience that understands us, but we want to kind of also offer other audiences on-ramps into us and the best way for us to do that is to get on other people’s podcasts. So here’s a little call to action for you right now. If you know a podcast that you think we could add value to that, you’d love to hear us.
Please, let us know what are all the podcasts you’ve listened to where you think it resonates in a kind of aligns really well with us, tell us what those podcasts are, because that’s our mission right now is to get on other people’s podcasts and figure out how we can add value there and give people on reps to come and meet us.
So that’s number one. Number two is we can pay for traffic that’s okay. But it’s sort of interrupting people. So we’re trying to do that in a way that actually adds value as well. And then the number three is we need to level up our social game. We’ve kind of realized. You know what? We spend a lot of time on this pillow content doing a lot of work on the meaty stuff and what we don’t really enjoy.
What we’re not really good at is kind of fractionalizing that making more sort of snackable bottle and putting it on these platforms where people can kind of get a taste for us and then figure out if they want to go deeper. Those are the three things that I’ve learned after setting a 10 K target. The important thing is the target comes first.
The learning happens after bringing it love
Ryan: that, and it all starts with asking the right question. Doesn’t it say kind of just pose that question. How do we get to 10 K downloads per month? And then all of a sudden everything comes into alarm and underneath that, and I know I’m the same with my targets in the business, more orientated towards creating success stories, working with our members more closely in the program.
And it’s the same thing. You’re like, how can we make the experience better? And then you start to learn the skills that are necessary to do that. So I’ve been learning how to create online integrations, you CSS styling and all of these different. Just to make this really kind of seamless, consistent experience that makes it fun for people to engage with.
And so if you don’t ask that question, you don’t really think about a lot of the avenues that can become available to you to learn. And as we said before, you want to learn those things as you’re actually applying it as it’s relevant to what you’re actually doing. And so the big question mate, for this one is
Terry: where are you wasting time trying to know before actually doing.
Ryan: Perfect. Nice. Which brings me to this next one from lucky Smith and other lesson that we took from this, and something would turn into a principle is build your business in a way that works for you. And you mentioned this before, so you’ve kind of alluded to this already, but as you said, the business has to enrich you as you go along so that you can enrich others.
And so for us, it’s a lot about finding. What are the things that we actually want to be doing on a day to day basis that makes it sustainable. That makes us want to get out of bed and work with the people we want to build the things and Polish the parts of the business that we actually just enjoy doing.
Because if you try to do too much of what you don’t want, what you don’t enjoy it, then it will feel like too much of a sacrifice. And we say with ourselves, we’ve developed that principle within the business as well, which is we never want to ask success to be the sum of all that sacrifice. And so you just want to make sure that there’s not too much of that along the way so that you don’t resent it, but also so that your energy only grows over time with it.
And so for us, we’ve got really specific on our roles in terms of saying, all right, that’s what I like doing. That’s what I’d done it. And you know, this. And so you kind of always feeling the gaps, making sure that you’re always doing things that add energy and not taking it away from you so that you can continue to
Yeah. I think it’s critical in business. There’s a great quote from, I think it’s Ben Hardy and he says you can’t do what you love until you give up all your hype. So remember what we said before about it’s a transfer of. So if every day you’re coming into work and you are just ground into the ground, by all the stuff that feels like really hard work for you, you’re going to find it very difficult to transfer any energy doing that, right?
So this is the value of a business is you figuring out how you can manage your resources, basically design the ideal sort of work you want to be doing and how you want to be doing it. And the quicker you can do that, the more fulfilled you are in your work and the whole sort of energy cycle fulfills itself.
Basically, the other thing that I learned from lucky, and we’ve had a lot of discussions. Is the way that you do this. You don’t have to do the classic, I’m quitting everything. I’m going to go and have a crack at this. And I’m going to throw caution to the wind and off I go, I’ve done it both ways. And the way we’ve done this business has been, I think, much smarter.
As I said, I’ve kind of been learning these skills management consulting for the last five years basically, and being transitioning into the business. So when we shut down ocean road wealth, I actually went. Did more consulting at that point. And we use some of that. We sort of started to fund the business a little bit out of that.
And then you were able to sort of stay in full-time. The other thing that you did was spend about six weeks picking up Christmas trees to be able to find that first year of growth, wasn’t it? Cause we knew it was going to be slow and we’re going to figure it out our why? So what we did was, well, what are the sacrifices we need to make to de-risk this for us so that we can play the long game from day one.
And for me it made a huge difference because we’ve been. Validate our hypothesis without feeling Lockwood under pressure all the time and make long, big bits. So we can actually add more value to the business much more quicker, because we’re not worried about how am I going to eat this month. And I think that’s a big myth, right?
You have to go out and you have to go out on a limb and you have to put everybody behind it. I don’t know whether that’s true for everyone. I know, certainly for me, maybe when I was younger, that’s probably the way to do it. I’ve got kids now I’ve got twins. I want to make sure that we’re not putting our family under undo.
And I think that’s, might’ve be different. So in the beginning, you’re in the business, full-time, I’m in the business only two days and you’re always much more delivery. Moral is much more around the content, sort of the outreach side of things. And so it’s only kind of really now that I’m starting to transition, like spend a lot more time in the business alongside you.
And that’s because frankly, the business warrants that it’s hits these markets and wants to hit those markets and I’ll take the next step in and that’s. A much safer process. We’re not guessing we know what next year is going to look like based off last sheet bicycles.
Ryan: Yes. Don’t like when you first start a business, it requires resources and the business needs resources.
You also need to live and we kind of do challenges. I guess the famous words by Tony Robbins, where he says, just burn the boats. Yeah. There’s no way to go back. If you’re there, you have to survive. You’ll make it work. But like you’ve mentioned in previous episodes, stress brain doesn’t learn, but a stress brain also tends to think quite small just about the day to day.
And those short, small wins, like you mentioned, We always wanted to play the long game. We’re always thinking about how do we create something for the next five years next 10 years. It wasn’t about necessarily making the quick wins and a podcasts is a perfect example of that because you don’t expect to see any reward for six months.
No, one’s listening. No. One’s showing up to engage with the. It’s such a long game that you applied, but it’s such a valuable thing to do after a period of time for us, it was about, I was thinking Christmas trays, boom, making sure that we didn’t overdo ourselves in the perspective of cutting ourselves too short of resources, both in the business and ourselves personally, because we also wanted to think bigger and we wanted to be able to have that level of security in our minds, safety in our minds.
So that we could continue to make this sustain for a longer period of time. And, you know, just to enjoy more of the experience along the way, even though you’re hustling is still this level of knowing that you’re going to be okay.
Terry: So I think the question here is what is your action bias and what I mean by the action biases?
How do you get results? What’s the modus operandi. That’s kind of uniquely yours and the easiest way to answer this question, we’ve talked about this in the past is to go online, just search for something called the Colby, a index and what that is. It’s a test. That’ll tell you. How you do things in a unique way that gets results that reflects your skills in terms of who you are.
And what you want to do is you want to think about how do I integrate this knowledge, my modus operandi, into the way we work. And the more you can do that, the higher value, the bigger, the contribution you’re going to have much quicker. I think it’s a valuable test to be able to do and understand that.
Well, this is generally how I get things done.
Ryan: Okay. Which brings me to the last one from lucky. Smith’s the principal that I pulled from it was to get help to see things in 2020. And what I mean by that is just having a second observer, someone that is objective somebody that’s outside, what you’re doing, and doesn’t carry an emotional investment either and have them audit your thinking and look at what you’re working on, what you’re working towards and what you think you need to get there as well.
And so, you know, a perfect example of this is we’ve now taken on Locky as an advisor in. He’s now become someone that we catch up with once a month and he looks at things objectively. We have to organize our thoughts. We’ve got someone that we can. Turn to stress, test our thinking, but also to help settle debates and all of those things that happen.
It’s just having someone that is outside of the day to day as well, that isn’t cone up in the minutiae of the tasks that you’re doing as well. The busy-ness of the day that helps you see things more in that 2020.
Terry: Yeah, definitely. I would reframe that and say, Lucky’s taken, I saw who said yes, now I’m willing to help you guys.
And the key question here is. Who around you with experience and wisdom to share, could guide you and would be willing to who can help you. There are people that have already done a lot of this stuff. There are people that have solved these problems and for you to think that you have to solve every one of these problems alone, frankly, it’s silly and it’s arrogant.
It’s going to thank you so much longer. The more you realize that other people, the collaboration that can happen amongst people, even yesterday, Ryan will tell, talk. Sorry for you. Who’s helping us out with our socials. And just by virtue of having the conversation, we both thought clearer about how to solve that problem, which is what do we do about this whole social situation and nothing else happened.
But it was just the fact that we had to watch CQI. We had to justify, we had to explain. And despite doing that, we got a lot more clarity for ourselves. Sorry. If you’re thinking that you’re going to be the rugged individual, who does it all themselves and gets to turn around and say, I did it on my own.
You’re probably going to do it on your own, but you won’t do much. Yeah, absolutely.
Ryan: You look very rugged. Dimed seem
Terry: to be a rugged individual. That’s what I am for.
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Ryan: Kate Toon, where do we start with that one? The
Terry: big one for me that I got from Kate was trying to build a business around your strengths. Everybody has a superpower, everybody has something they were really good at doing.
So we talked before about the way you get things done, this is a little bit different. What is it that you’re doing very well? And what sort of process do you follow? That’s the different we differentiate ourselves. We’ve got a level of self-awareness and this is still improving. Lucky’s helping us with this, but the why we say it is it’s kind of too high level rolls away.
H assume. So, this is not our framework. This is Gino Wickman’s framework. And if you’re looking for a book and you do want to learn how businesses can offer, right. And I would highly recommend a book called traction. That was his first book and his second book it’s called rocket fuel. And it talks about these kind of two different roles that founders play.
And one of those roles is visionary seeing the future. And the other one is end. They both very different in terms of their strengths. And so where you kind of realized through this process that we H kind of lean in one of these directions. It is not that you are all of this, or none of that. But it’s what you are more of.
For me, it’s more the visionary side of things. I’m the one that’s going out, seeking you information, trying to synthesize that, connecting new ideas, innovating, and then sort of communicating what this new food future could look like. And we’re in the process of that with a massive project at the moment are really pushing our really kind of pace setting in that area.
And then by the same token, I cause this. And then slowly, slowly, you turn that chaos into order. So you’re more of the integrator. You’re specifying things to make things, figure out how they work, systemizing things, getting things more stable, and then demonstrating how things can work. So if you know that those things are true for us, we know how we need to build a business around what we each do best with both.
In this era of personal finance and becoming financially self-reliant and we aligned in terms of our mission to be able to bring that to more people. But we also aligned in terms of our values, what we believe is important about how to go about building a business, where we differ is how we actually can do that.
And so I think the thing that Kate taught me was she didn’t say I’m a copywriter, and then I’m going to go out and do something completely different. She’s like, no, I’ve been writing copy for the best brands in the. Now I’m going to offer that as my own business. I want to do that for myself. So she had a lot of human capital that she was able to basically Polly from one context to another.
And that story made sense. You know, there’s no way for me that I would come out claim to be a financial expert from sport directly. It’s actually the combination of you and I, that makes sense. It’s the technical background and the understanding around how money works. And then for me, it’s more about how people work.
How do people work with money? That’s, what’s different and distinct about us.
Ryan: Yeah, I agree. And what about outside of that is I actually think that partnership is underrated as well. And going back to Lucky’s example as well, he actually partnered later on with people in a field that it was adjacent to what they were doing.
And it was a way that you brought in one, a different dynamic. It affected Colt. Yeah. It also affected the way that it business, the way they served their customer. So there’s all these innovative kind of elements to it as well. But it also more importantly means that you can focus on your strengths. You can lean into your action biases.
And as we’re talking about full, like do the things that enrich you as well. So it doesn’t become a drain on your energy. And so I think seek out partnership. It’s not always going to be readily available to. Having someone that does help you say things a little bit more clearly, even inside the business is very valuable.
Being able to focus on the things that you’re good at and you want to do is really valuable. It means you can do more of it. And so the way we say it is like, would you rather own a tail of an elephant or the whole of an air? And I think partnership kind of speaks to that. It kind of helps you go well, one plus one doesn’t necessarily mean too often.
It means. Because of the way that, that actually multiplies and magnifies.
Terry: Definitely. I would totally agree with that. Another part of it too, that I just was thinking about, as you mentioned, that was, you could do more of what you’re good at, but also your strengths, your gifts are also your curse at times.
Yeah. So the thing that you’re really good at you can get, so narrow-minded. That you can kind of go too far in that direction. And I think you H provide each other that balance. And I kind of talked about that project we’re working on right now and being able to kind of bounce off you kind of yoga and like, oh cool.
But we’ve got to get this other stuff done too. So it could be a district. For me, if I go too far that way, and if I’m left to my own devices, I could just go down that pathway, go down that rabbit hole forever. But if you’re working with somebody else, they pull you out of that and they show you, hang on, hang on, hang on him.
And by the same token, I’m doing the same thing for you. Like I’m saying, all right, the day to day, let’s just come out of that every now and then. And let’s figure out how we still in the same direction. Are we still doing that? Right. It benefits you in more ways than one. It’s not just doing more of what you good at.
It’s also kind of stress testing and giving you that balanced.
Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. That was a bit of a digression. So going back to, you said due to business around your strengths, what’s the key question to go along with that
Terry: one? The key question I think is what is your super. And how can you eliminate automate or delegate other tasks?
And it may be that you’re eliminating tasks you don’t want to do. Maybe that you’re automating some tasks with technology. You’re delegating to people that work for you or work with you. There’s lots of different ways that you can do that to be able to have a high contribution. Cause you’ve done. So many units of time.
And if you apply your time in the highest, most productive way, you should be applying your talents. It should be things that you are really not great at. And that’s not to say that you should learn new things and keep growing and evolving yourself. But there are things that you do way better than other people that you need to do more off spot
Ryan: on, which brings me to one of the biggest principles that I pulled from this conversation.
And we’ve talked about it before this podcast. So it’s so important just to kind of rehash it. Build leverage create this level of disconnect between your time and your money decouple those two things, time and money, which means that you can continue to earn more over time, but you can do less. You can be less obligated to commit your time and your talent to things that you don’t want to do.
And so katetoon is a perfect example where she was doing a lot of that one-to-one staff. She was completing the work for people. She was going into businesses doing the copywriter. And really try to get a ton and a lot of ways. And then she had the realization that hang on, there’s gotta be a better way to do this.
There’s gotta be a way for me to do the work once and serve 10 people serve a hundred people or a thousand people. And so we’ve talked about examples of this being, you know, podcasts is a form of media leverage. It’s the ability to. Have this conversation once, but have 10,000 people be a part of that conversation.
And we kind of go out and talk to 10,000 people each month. Getaway I’d love to, it would be a good time. I’d probably be quite exhausted socially after spending eight months, pretty much in a lockdown. But yeah, that’s the point of leverage. It’s being able to do things at scale. And another example of leverage is right now, we’re building this app within our business, which.
We can connect with people a whole lot better. We can serve people, make sure that they are working through the program and the mentorship at a higher level and have higher success rates and all of those things as well as have a better experience. But it also means that we can serve more people at this higher level as.
And so it’s always just looking for those opportunities to one eliminate waste, find ways to take waste out of the business. Like you said before, delegate eliminate the things that don’t really matter as well by using technology or using systems or media or something like that, so that you can increase efficiency so that you can be more productive with the same amount of time that you’re putting in.
And so what other exempts to
Terry: leverage? I think we’ve gotta push stop on this recording, and then I’m going to send it off to Morrow. Who’s our editor and Morrow is in Scotland. So when we go to sleep, he wakes up and works. So we’re gonna actually get this recorded in the afternoon on one day. And when we wake up the next day, it can be done.
That’s great. Leverage. We can be asleep, producing the podcast, copy down the other way. So I think the key thing he would leverage is if you don’t figure out how to create leverage in your business, through people, through media, through cards and. Then your income is always going to be kept by your time.
You can only earn as much as your time is worth. And so what Kate Toon realized was I can keep pushing this up, but it is elastic. There is a point where people stop pushing back and saying that’s too much. And so that’s my cap. And that’s because I’ve actually coupled my income to my time, my earnings per hour.
And once you figured out how to decouple those two things, and then she could earn money, she’d have a smaller import for a much higher output. And our memory in that episode, she talked about at this stage, I don’t need to earn them. I’m just going to free up more time. And I want to do that in a way that actually continues to serve people at a high level.
That sounds like you’re doing less with people. It that’s actually not the case. You’re thinking about better ways to do more with less in a way that people much prefer. So it’s not cheating anyone. That’s actually better for them. You’re doing a bit of thinking around that. You’re doing a lot of problem solving and you’ll be rewarded for that latter on that.
And that’s what I love about business. Right? You do a big investment and it’s an emotional investment. At first. We think this is going to work. We’re going to try this. We’re going to have a go at this podcast or. And then they comes growth on the backend, but you don’t get the growth without the investment.
Yeah. I love
Ryan: And so the real big question for me here is how can you productive Oz? What you do? How can you package up what you’re doing in a way that removes the time link that’s so tightly connected with it. How do you really decouple those two things? Time and money. So it build leverage. And the last principle that you pulled from.
Terry: No your numbers. Yes. You need to automate delegate, eliminate wherever possible, but there’s something that you should not do. And that is to assume that everything’s going to be fine all the time. This is one area of business that you really want to be on top of, and you don’t have to become an accountant, go through all the books and learn and learn sort of the whole tax law.
But what’d you do need to do is partner with an accountant who will educate you, not just somebody that will get the work done and tell you what to do. I think it’s one of the most important things you can do in businesses find partners who are teachers. And if you want to know of accountants who are also teachers go out and look at accountants and accounting business that are teaching as should have content that they’re investing in you, that’s the easiest way to find a teacher.
So if you do that, then you’re going to be okay, because that person is going to walk you through every step of the way they’re going to make things make sense for you as they need to not all at once, because if you try to learn all that stuff yourself, it’s damn overwhelming. And there’s a lot of. Kind of really vague language.
That’s big words with a lot of syllables and a lot of acronyms and all those kind of things. And it’s designed for insiders. So if you want to get someone who can help you kind of decipher all that help you make sense of it, so that it makes sense for you and your situation as you go. And that’s totally possible, and you don’t have to become an accountant to be able to understand it.
And it’s one of the most valuable skill sets
Ryan: you can. I love that. What you mentioned about people that are investing in educating you before you even do business with them. Like that was a big part of why we did this podcast as well, which was invest in our audience enough to the point that they feel like when the time is right.
That absolutely invest in us. And they trust us with helping them in that way. So if you can find an accountant that does that, which they should absolutely. If they’re putting out content to help you understand how to get started and understand the acronyms and the language and the abstractions that they can create someone that’s actually removing those things. Then I reckon they’re going to be a pretty good choice. It gotta be out there somewhere to here.
Terry: You know what? They’re few and far between in accounting, but if you can fall on them, absolutely. With a wedding gold
Ryan: and a good example of knowing your numbers. For us way, money map every month in the business. Yeah. We talked about the money mapping practice for our personal lots, which is really important. That’d be part of the money mentorship, but we also do that with that business, which is being very conscious of that. How you allocate your resources, how you allocate your money each month, what you decide to use your money for how you want to invest that in the projects that you’re building, but also the expenses that you carry and the people that you bring in to help you speed things up as well.
So we do this money mapping every single month. We take a step back. We forecast every six months and no doubt that it gives you so much confidence in the decisions you’re making now, because you can actually see the ripple effects going forward as well. When you’re forecasting forward as well. The big question for you on this one is
Terry: I think the big one here is like, what’s your personal income goal. And then how much does the business need to make for you to be able to earn that? That question is so rarely asked by people in business. They just assume that the business’s money is their money. I made a hundred grand this year. That’s actually not true. You probably need to earn a lot more than that to be able to earn your a hundred grand in terms of the salary.
So that’s such an important question to ask, and I realize that by asking that. I’m going to send you off on a bit of a wild goose chase, and that’s very deliberate. You want to be able to answer this question? So, you know, when you’re setting your targets and the business, which targets are realistic and what that means for you personally.
Ryan: Yes, absolutely. And that is a big trap that most people start with, which is making decisions based off revenue. So you definitely want to be thinking of. Some of the things that have to come out before you actually have the resources available at your disposal attacks, thinking about having a cash reserve, the seems that paying yourself a lot of those things you want to decipher early days, especially if you can, because it definitely helps you be more conscious about your resources as well, which brings us to the end.
So you mentioned earlier, there was going to be a couple of really good resources to recommend off the back of the. What are they?
Terry: These two resources, they’re less about teaching you how business works and more about why business, if that makes sense. So when it comes to motivation, what makes people do things?
There’s something that’s pulling you toward it. And then there’s something that you’re running away from and sorry, these two resources, the first one is a toward resource. It’s going to draw you to it. It’s going to make that feature more compelling. It’s a great book. It’s called Val shall prosper. This book thou shall prosper.
It’s written by a Jewish rabbi. Matthew. And would highly encourage you to read this book. It’s not always an easy read, but what it will do is it’s going to change some of your belief systems around business. There’s all this conditioning that you have around business from Hollywood, from the government.
That business is bad and business people are greedy and all those sort of things. And let me tell you, it couldn’t be further from the truth. If you’re in business, the only way you make money is by serving someone. If you don’t serve someone, you don’t make any money. So you get punished by being selfish and you get rewarded for being self.
And this book really hammers that home and it teaches you how Jewish people, the principles I follow to build really valuable, really profitable business and generational wealth. So I think you could do a lot worse than sort of slowly work your way through that book. And it starts to change your mind.
And that’s really important because your belief systems impact your behavior and your behavior impacts your results. And if you are at all timid, when it comes to business and you’re at all, Then we talked about before energy, this, this is a transfer of energy. And if you project doubt in what you’re doing or who you are, then people pick up on that and it’s very obvious to them.
So you need to make sure I’ve got conviction in what I’m doing. And I believe in this, it’s beyond me. It’s not all about me. This is about what impact I’m trying to have. So that’s the.
Ryan: Yeah what I took from it also is like you said, it’s about being selfless. It’s about improving the lot for everybody. You being commercial, being an entrepreneur actually helps you improve not only in a lot for yourself, but obviously the lot for your customers, lots of the family, and it’s just creating the economy around you. So the more people. Trying to do this means the quality of life, the standard of living for everybody goes up.
And so, yeah, I love that that book is more around improving it for everybody. And it’s not this selfish endeavor that you’re going on. And he’s also the person that first coined for us and where we pulled the idea of certificates appreciation from. So definitely changes the way you feel about earning money, which leads me into the other book, which as he said before, it’s more about Chinese.
Almost irritate the discomfort or some of the status quo for you and push you into action lock. It did for me, which is the 50th floor, which was written by Robert Green. It is brutal. You would probably rate it and go, holy fucking shit. What a slap in the face. And I definitely did, but it’s where that quote came from before, where it helps you go, damn, that’s true.
Like there is a lot of dead time. It just resonated with me. So. And it definitely irritated some of my discontent at that time. And it was enough to make me go, all right, I don’t want that anymore. I need to make a change. It became a driver. It became a motivator for me to go. Now I’m not settling for that.
That’s actually gonna propel me into taking action. And I use that as fuel. I don’t want to always be using that because I think that becomes a little bit of dark energy. If you lie, rather than be more compelled by the good in the future. But it is definitely very valuable because as we have talked about going away from some of that pain is more motivating often than it is going towards some of the things that creating in the future.
It’s getting away from some of the negative feedback that exists in our environment. And so, yeah, Savage rate, but definitely recommended if you just want to kick out the bot,
would you say,
Terry: let’s say a turtle doesn’t move forward until it gets more uncomfortable within the shell than it is without. And that book makes things pretty uncommon.
Ryan: Yes, absolutely. Like that book for me. Pouring acid in the shell. It definitely caused the mirror. I maybe want to change things which leads us into the challenges that we mentioned at the start. You said there was going to be a challenge at the end of this. What is that?
Terry: Yeah, we’d just love to sort of light. If you listening and we’ve got your flight up enough through this business series, and you realize that business is the vehicle for achieving that financial independence, and you want to get started on this journey. You didn’t not to have to build an empire tomorrow. He is our challenge to you. Just find one customer that will pay you for anything.
And it doesn’t even matter if it’s a thing that you identify with. Just create an economic exchange. Off your own bat, become your own economic agent, earn that money from your own ingenuity. And I promise you you’ll start to feel differently about the money that you earn, because you’ll start to see, this is not capped.
This is something. If I can do that once I can do that more than once. And if I can do it for that much, why can’t I do it for this much? And I think it’s just a really important proof point belief. It kind of builds belief in you the first time you do it. I remember the first time I stepped out of sport and the first time I earned money off my own.
I think I did a talk and it was, I got paid 500 bucks for about 30 minutes of talking or something and , but it was 500 bucks. I didn’t have to ask for. I didn’t have to receive from an employer. I created that from my. And that feeling is addictive and you should pull on that thread. So our thing is like, if you want to get started with this, here’s the challenge.
We’re going to lay it down before you find that one paying customer and see if you can create that economic exchange, we’re going to put a post up on our Instagram, the cashflow code, and that post, if you do find this customer, what we want you to do is we just want you to share this post so that we know that you’ve actually gone ahead and succeeded in that challenge.
So we’re going to put a post up on our Instagram and that post is going to say. My own economic agent. And that means that’s code that’s code language between you and. That you went out and made your own money, basically. So if that happens and if you manage to succeed in this challenge, all we want you to do is to share that post tag us in that share. So we know that you’re on the journey with us.
Ryan: I still remember very clearly when we were saved our first payment for our program, it was like an adrenaline shot me. Yeah. I know we’ve had a couple of them members through similar things as well. I know Sam, Wilson’s a good example. She had an Instagram and creating a community around sobriety and, you know, being sober, curious, she says, which is more, not necessarily about recovering from out being an alcoholic, but it’s more about just embracing that as a lifestyle.
And, you know, I remember she had a speaking gig that she got paid for exactly the same thing. It was like, how do you actually turn that idea? You know, building that committee. And how do you become your own economic agent in that way? And I remember her getting paid to do that. Speaking geek was such a critical first step.
And Sarah fights is another example. She didn’t episode nap. Outcast must have been about episode 17 writing and what she loves is meditation. And she kind of took that as an idea how she enjoyed it, started to share it with people in an instant. And then she started taking on clients. She started training people to the extent now that she’s actually started running meditation workshops within corporations, within bigger businesses as well.
And so similar thing you like, how do you actually go from one in joining meditation or trading a community where you talk about being sober and. Create some economic reward from doing that. They seem like quite difficult things to do, but they had two good examples of people that we’ve worked with have done that.
And I think one of the big questions that stops people from actually pursuing that is one we’ll pay we’ll pay for it, or would they want to pay for it? And two, what should I charge? How do you answer that question?
Terry: I think in the beginning, it doesn’t matter what, what you charge the thing is that money changes hands cause that’s proof. And it’s a signal to you that you’re adding something. So you should probably just think more on an emotional level. What am I comfortable with? And if you feel like you’re kind of getting started and starting out, I know for us, what we charged the beginning was nowhere near what time we were putting into it.
The question wasn’t can we make this profitable? The question is, will people pay for this and our price that is. Of your confidence in the long run in the beginning, you’re just trying to build that confidence. So you just charge whatever feels fair and reasonable to you that you feel like people will pay for.
The only caveat that I would say is don’t undercharge to the point where people will start to doubt that you know what you’re talking about or that you can help. So you remember that price is a signal. And for us, if we add more value to the program and we make it even better and we’re seeing even better results with.
The net price reflects that conviction and reflects fave value for us in terms of the exchange. We always want our program to be 10 times more valuable than the price and that’s kind of our market. So if the price goes up, it means we feel like we’ve made it actually even more valuable. And the process is going to reflect that.
So just charge what feels fair and reasonable to you. And don’t worry about what it is. Just worry about whether you can actually earn money doing the thing in the beginning, and then slowly ratchet it up in, along with your confidence level. That’s what all.
Ryan: Brilliant, no sweat night, which brings us to the end of this wrap up any final comments from you?
Terry: No, I might really enjoyed the series I want to thank right Corker and I want to thank lucky Smith, Kate Toon for coming on really valuable lessons that they’ve shared with us. And I hope this episode is really helped you to consolidate this information. Start to turn it into a plan of action so that you can stop becoming an economic agent, build that post a wealth that prosperity in the future.
Ryan: Of course. Oh, I subscribe and comment or give us a rating if you have. At what’s coming up next. What’s next in the, uh, passive income project world question.
Terry: So we’re transitioning into a new little series. Now we’re going to sort of follow this pattern and the focus for the next series is going to be on the most valuable skill that you can acquire in this kind of technological information age.
How do you learn? How do you learn? Because if you can speed up the way you learn, then you become more valuable in any field. And so we’re going to be talking about how do we build that skill? What does learning look like and how do we get there much quick? So we’re going to talk about some of the skills and principles that we’ve figured out, but also I’m really excited to bring on Scott Young.
Who’s the author of ultra learning. He’s going to be coming on and talking you through some of the principles. Light out in his book, I’m going to be talking about how we apply those within our program to start, you know, we talk about business, right? How does this connect to business businesses just learning on the ground?
So I think it connects really well. Right. Sort of okay. Business matters. And then what’s the number one skill is going to help you in business becoming a damn good lawyer and learning very fast. That’s kind of way.
Ryan: Very much looking forward to it. And I’ll say you guys in the next step son. Thanks. Bye.