In this episode, Ryan and Terry sit down to discuss and debate their takes on PiP#80 with Jeff Booth. And they explore how they are thinking about using this information to guide their investing and career decisions going forward.
What you'll learn:
Terry: Welcome back to the Passive Income Project. I’m joined again by Ryan. It’s been a little while, mate. Welcome back.
Ryan: mate. Good to be back. How are you?
Terry: I’m all right. I’m all right. Now, before we just crack into this episode, you got a bit of news, so why don’t you spill it?
Ryan: I do, yes. I got engaged while I was away. Just got back from Columbia and had a ripping trip exploring the Colombian, uh, hillside and coastlines, the, uh, Caribbean, which was beautiful. And, I did get a little bit excited at one point. There was a bit of love being shared at my brother’s wedding and, um, found myself with a heavy knee after she caught the bouquet and bit of a spare of the moment thing, microphone and all, uh, managed to catch myself a fiance.
Terry: Well, I thought it was a joke you sent through the video and I thought it was a gag, and I was like, wait, what?
Ryan: Yeah, was a bit of
a social excitement that came along with it,
that’s for sure.
Terry: well, I reckon it’s the most epic case of ESIS I’ve ever seen
Ryan: I reckon could, could be
Terry: You’re like, I like this. This looks good. I’m doing it.
Ryan: I want a wedding.
Terry: You’re like, I’m getting involved in this.
This is good. Um, awesome,
Ryan: thank you, mate.
Terry: I said to, um, somebody was asking about it. I said, all right, look, it wasn’t a case of if it was just when, and um, it was a pretty epic way to do it.
Ryan: it was, it’s, uh, came as a surprise to her and to me, I’ll admit. Uh, I did have a couple of drinks, got a bit socially excited and didn’t have a ring, so now need to make sure we get that sorted very soon. And, uh, uh, a wedding to plan for just to, to add BUN to the cashflow, which is always good.
Terry: do you know how I can tell your dad a few drinks?
Ryan: Well, yeah. Why? Yeah.
Terry: Because when you asked the question and you re-ask the question, you said really carefully. What do you say, ? It wasn’t like the way you normally speak, it was a word spoken by someone who’s like, speak these words. Well sure you speak. I was like, I’ve spoken like that before.
And that’s me slowing way down going, just get these words right.
Ryan: maybe I’m more well spoken when I’ve had a couple of drinks.
Terry: You were, because you would’ve said otherwise, you would’ve been like, what do you reckon? What do you say? That’s what you would’ve said,
Ryan: It, it was, uh, was one of those occasions where it doesn’t happen here often in Australia, but where, all the men were drinking whiskey on the rocks and, uh, we were getting
topped up as we were drinking it. So every time you had a sip, you got, uh, a fresh pour. And so it got a little bit, um, to get outta hand. But, uh, everyone was in a, in a good a having a good time.
Terry: That actually explains a lot
Terry: the whiskey. Yeah.
Ryan: not, not usually a whiskey drinker either.
Terry: Anyway, let’s break into this episode. Um, I’ve been looking forward to this one. We sat on this Jeff Booth episode for a while and I wanted to get it out kind of in between series and, uh, it was a pretty meaty episode. There’s a lot of layers to it. And sort of similar to the Lynn Alden episode that we did with her later on last year.
I thought it’d be a good one to unpack with you just to kind of go through it because there’s a lot of layers in there I think it was a little bit hard. I tried as many ways as I could to get down to the most granular level of like impractical detail. What should we be doing, what should we be thinking?
How should we thinking about it? And it’s just a little bit hard with Jeff I because I think he lives so far in the future and he’s, probably normal day to day. He probably very different, to our typical listeners. So I guess we wanted to translate that as well as we could.
Ryan: Yeah, and I think, the conversation or you know, the topics that you guys explored, It creates more arguments for you and I than anything. I think, not even arguments, but more debates, let’s say. Uh, they’re not necessarily heated, but
Terry: is responsible for a good many debates between you and I.
Ryan: I’d say a few amongst a lot of people. I reckon he’s, uh, a real cat amongst a pigeon type fella. Um, but you know, he is, he’s very well reasoned in a lot of his thinking and like you said, lives a long way in the future. but it definitely, sometimes it can be unsettling and it’s kind of making sure that you do the sense making that that comes along with some of those, conversations, some of those ideas, because it can cause unrest because all change feels like challenge and you just wanna make sure that we kind of do that sense making together and think about, well, what does it mean for us? How do we position ourselves or approach things to make sure that we’re, you know, things get better and easier for us over time. Ultimately, the whole purpose of this podcast is building wealth and, and, being to able to live in a way that we want to be able to live. And so how do we use that information to make that possible? Ultimately,
Terry: Yeah. And, and you know what’s interesting? I, I actually, I had to listen to it three times and I remember my initial impression of that. Listen, the first time I was actually on the call, I was like, man, there was some pretty heavy stuff that he’s talking about there, you know? And then I had to kind of go back through the edit and then listen to it again before to proof it.
And the more I listen to it, the more I realize there’s actually quite a positive message that sits kind of underneath the whole thing that, that I really want to get to because you have to understand, like, the first part of the context. we sort of want to go through and decode that.
What was he actually saying about, you know, used the word system so many times, but like, what’s he saying about the system? And then how is AI playing into that? What do we hear in terms of like, what, how he thinks things are gonna play out? And then basically just give our comments on, okay, so this is what his view was and this is how we heard it.
And then from there, I think we’ll talk about what we took from it, how we are thinking about it based on. Our discussion, our debate, um, our arm wrestle afterwards,
Terry: just to kind of get through and to create as much practical guidance as as possible. Cause I think it is important to try to think through this, like on a day-to-day basis, like how will this influence our decisions in the way that we’re investing our time and our talent?
Those are the two things. And he did talk a lot about Bitcoin as a way to sort of invest the money. And we want to give a bit of context and add some nuance to that as well because I feel like, he is a long way down the road. And there’s other considerations we wanna kind of bring into that discussion too, don’t we?
Ryan: Yep. Absolutely. And you know, I’m a, big optimist. I
always kind of wanna see the best in everything. And so I’m excited to explore like how, uh, that message really of optimism shines through when it comes to this.
And so let’s start with kind of decoding, uh, the message a little bit cuz there was a lot in it.
And I just wanna pull out some of the really key takeaways that, uh, we want to kind of go to another layer with in terms of understanding.
So what was the big takeaway for you? What one stands out for you?
Terry: Well, before I talk through that, I, I would just say like I was really hoping that he’d go into a little bit more depth around, cuz in the book, he actually does go into the depth around how AI learns
and how it actually works. talked more about kind of how he saw things playing out and I think his rationale was basically like, Hey, it doesn’t actually matter now whether you know how it works, it’s here, it’s gonna do its thing.
The most important thing for you to think about is like, what is it gonna do and what should I do?
and I guess what I heard was AI is definitely gonna change things and it’s a genie that won’t be put in in the bottle. It’s just out. And um, there is gonna be winners and there’s also gonna be losers.
But the gains are not likely to be sort of evenly spread, if that makes sense. They’re gonna be a little bit more concentrated. And that’s where we was getting to with you keep talking about, yes, this is a new technology, but it’s built on top of a system that is fundamentally flawed in the way that it works.
And so expecting this to be a boon for everybody in all spaces at all times is probably a bit naive. It’s probably gonna play out like these gains are gonna be concentrated, more and more over time in the hands of a few, in the same way that technology’s played out with the rise of internet. Right now.
You’ve got four big players, apple, Amazon, and Facebook.
All right? You’ve got kind of these like, God kings that actually have massive say on our life. and he’s like, this is probably gonna play out the same way. And I think it’s interesting too, and you’ve seen a little bit about regulation coming out, like actually Sam Oltman and these companies are saying, actually, we want you to regulate now.
need to be regulating. And, you know, there’s good reasons for that, you know, in terms of like making sure we do this the right way. Absolutely. But there’s also a selfish reason, which is, hey, we’ve got a big enough game now. So if you create regulation, you make it actually harder for other players to come in and take our advantage.
And so you can start to see that playing out right now in the news. So don’t, don’t just think it’s all about, oh mate, I, AI’s gonna, you know, kill us tomorrow. Actually, it’s a business advantage to have a lead on your competitors and then to have regulation come in behind you, it becomes a moat for you as a business.
Ryan: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so he really concluded the fact that the existing monetary system is insolvent. He made that really clear in the sense that there are way more claims on money than there is actual money. And obviously that there’s this demise that kind of exists within the system that we have.
The, and I say system again, that bloody s word and get rid of it. Uh, but in terms of the money that we are using, as you there’s obviously fundamental flaws and how that kind of shifts. And you could see he kept coming back to that. He kept coming back
itself as the kind of core technology that everything else sits on top of.
Terry: And I think the reason he we kept doing that is because, we’re talking about AI here, which is a new tool, but he’s basically saying, yes, it’s a new tool, but still playing on top of the same game board.
And this game board still operates in this flawed way. So to think that a new tool is gonna fix the game, or it’s gonna make the game better, it’s like, no, not really. It’s probably just gonna exacerbate the way the game already works.
So I think that’s why he kept coming back to that. I would’ve loved to go through some of the more AI stuff, but I do understand why you were like, yep.
That’s actually the point for you to understand. Because if you think that you’re just gonna pick up and start to use AI and then be a winner, he’s like, still operating in an environment
Ryan: You’re still fighting through the sludge. Yeah.
Yeah. When he said, and really kind of highlighted the fact that everything should be getting cheaper because of technology,
Ryan: the marginal cost of production, uh, should always be coming down to that point. That’s the thing that makes you just wanna put your head through the wall.
It’s a frustration of thinking that even though we got this exponential change in terms of technology, what humans can do more with less, uh, we’re still coming up against increases in the cost of living,
just doesn’t make sense.
Terry: it’s an interesting one. Like My Power Bill is about to go up, by a fair margin. Now, power companies aren’t worse at creating and distributing power than they were 20 years ago. They’re better, there’s better technology, they’re more efficient, there’s better ways to go and get the energy and to to store and use it.
So that’s technology, making things better. But we’re still paying more.
Actually, gas, we’re gonna be paying a lot more for gas and gas. Gas used to be just like this kind of waste thing in Australia where they’re like, oh, who cares? It’s just gas. It’s cheapest, anything, cheapest chips.
now we’re paying more for it. Now, it’s not all because of money. It’s also because of, the way supply and demand work and the decisions that have been made at a political level. So you don’t wanna discount any of that,
but broadly, why are we paying more for energy
Ryan: If you zoom out,
Terry: than we were three to five years ago?
That doesn’t make any sense.
Ryan: Yep, yep. We’re building a house at the moment. Same thing, the price of the house, the costs involved in, actually erecting that house. You would think that the same house would cost to build 15 years ago because technology has come further, but instead it costs probably two to three times what it did 15 years ago to build the same house.
And so it’s kind of that disconnect that just makes you go, what the fuck?
Terry: I’m glad you said fuck . Cause it is, what the fuck, right? It’s what the fuck?
Ryan: yeah, I think that that’s the exploration that, uh, and it’s the kind of the, the hidden feeling that people are getting, which is like, why are things actually getting harder when people are going out every single day to solve bigger and better problems and, serve the inconveniences that people
have, make things better for society ultimately. Uh, but for whatever reason, for a good many, it’s actually getting harder. And it’s that
feeling that people have that, he explains really well in terms of saying, well, it’s actually because the monetary system’s insolvent, so it’s, you know, this a snake eating its own tail.
And so you do look at AI and go look. Awesome. New tool, allows us to take intelligence to a new level. A massive extension on what we can do as individuals being able to, you know, leverage, chat G B T for example, to be able to learn at a greater rate, to be able to solve problems, to be able to build new things, you know, use its problem solving capabilities.
But what I really took from what Jeff was saying was if you use as an extension and still try to fight through the sludge that exists within, uh, you know, the monetary system that we have right now, it’s always gonna feel like an uphill battle. whereas he’s kind of saying step into a new system where his words, and he was alluding to, playing in a game that isn’t built to make you lose ultimately. saying that’s why he kept pulling it back to, to Bitcoin and why stepping into to noster in these different platforms that basically just, to not be pushing shit uphill. To reduce resistance because it’s, gives you more control.
It’s kinda that decentralized nature where there’s not a single entity sitting at above that has its own interest. Instead of,
it’s you controlling your own interest and being your, I guess, your own sovereign individual.
Terry: Yeah, it’s like you can be an unabated player in a market, in an environment, in an ecosystem, you can be basically operating in a free market. If that’s the case, if it’s more decentralized in that way versus in a centralized situation, um, quite, different. That’s the paradigm shift I think he’s talking about where he’s like, don’t feed this system that’s feeding off.
You step into this other, place,
place where your time, your energy, your risk will be rewarded. and then start sort thinking about solving problems that exist using these tools from that place.
And I know that’s. That sounds kind of bizarre to think about, but I think it does make sense cuz he’s like, yes, cool tools.
Yes, tools like ai, amazing. But the game board that you’re playing on still sucks.
Terry: Go to a game board where you can win, then start playing there. , basically
Ryan: yeah, yeah,
Terry: if I, if I could, if I could summarize it anyway.
Ryan: yeah. And I think just to kinda, continue with that vein of, language before, it definitely feels like Jeff’s just basically saying, don’t let your balls be in the hand of a central bank or a
government. Don’t let your balls be in the hand of a Facebook or a YouTube or a, uh, you know,
Terry: Phil, low
Ryan: what was it,
Terry: or a Phil Low
Ryan: a Phil Low?
Yeah. Central Bank still. Um, and instead like find a, a game board that fairly um, and it’s
where the house isn’t against you.
which, you know, obviously. That’s easier said than none.
Terry: sounds simple doing it like that, but then you think, but wow, , how actually do that? We will get, we and we are gonna kind of get to that point. But, before we kind of move on from, he actually said, he has to explain why this system’s broken and why he kind of says what he says about moving in this different direction.
And he made a few comments that I really wanted to drill down on with you. specifically around debt, specifically around, real estate. that I thought it was important to, to sort of add some context to, um, and even challenge a little bit more so from a timeline perspective as opposed to like the actual view itself.
I think directionally I would agree with those statements that like, you don’t wanna be over leveraged. and, you could find yourself, very much at risk if that’s the case. I think directionally I would agree with that. but also there’s a huge risk to not having debt in a system that is debt based.
particularly when we’re going in and outta these cycles of easing and tightening. And if we are moving into an easing cycle, particularly over the next five to 10 years, which, you know, if history repeats itself, they’ll do that. They’ll sort of go, oh, we we’ll put our foot on the, uh, on the brake too hard.
Now we’ve gotta put our foot on the accelerator. you know, you could find things change very, very quickly again. And he did make that point after he said that, know, rent seekers and, and people who take out lots of debt and real estate could a real problem. Um, he made the point afterwards that he said, now in the short to medium term, It actually could be good for you because you could pay things off a lot easier in a money that’s been more and more debased.
but he didn’t actually give timelines on when that short to medium term was. And I would suggest that his short to medium term is most people’s long term
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s looking at evolution, at a kind of human society basis, whereas we’re like thinking about an next five to 10 years and how to
navigate it. yeah, and this is a, you know, I remember we had a massive debate about this about two years ago. I reckon it was prior to, no, it must be a little bit longer.
It was before you bought your house and I bought a block where we were gonna build. And it was kind of, it was a very much centered around comfort with debt at that point. And
Terry: And it was off the back of, so I was reading his book.
that what it was?
Terry: yet read the book.
Terry: Yeah. I was reading it, you hadn’t yet read it. And I was like, what the fuck is going on ? Right. And um, we had this kind of back and forth around it. I was trying to explain it to you and then the point of view and then cuz the feeling you get is like, this house of cards is crumbling.
Like now it’s, it’s, it is, it is going.
But in reality, and I guess these collapses happen over longer and longer periods of time. Right. Like the, British pound used to be the world’s reserve currency. And over a course of like 50 years, it stopped being the world’s reserve currency.
Terry: And now you look at that in the course of history and go, wow. That, look at that whack, whack. And then we had this us But
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: And I, and I remember that argument being I I remember that point in time thinking you’re almost, you’d stepped into his space, maybe stepped forward into the future And I was like, well, but hang on a sec. Like we have to deal with the current reality that we are living in.
And the truth is people that have made the most ground, the most wealth, used debt to do it. And it’s kind of that conversation of, well, how long does that continue? Is it another five years, another 10 years, another 20, another 50 years? In which people are actually benefited by using debt as a means to buy bigger assets than they could otherwise afford on their own. And, combating the impact of inflation by, instead of experiencing the inflation on your own savings or savings, bringing forward future savings into the now and then paying off debt, which is ultimately what debt is. It’s saying instead of me saving 10 grand a year for the next 10 years and having a hundred grand to invest over that time, what if I pulled forward the next 10 years of savings into now and instead of inflation costs each year, I pay the interest cost
Ryan: And a lot of it’s like, well, If history continues itself forward for another 10, 20, 30 years, then if we’re too early to say, well this thing’s fucked. It is insolvent, we’re not willing to play on that game board. maybe where it’s still a lot of wealth is created, that is transferable into a new system. And so timeframes are important.
Terry: Timeframes are super important. One thing I just want to add a little bit of nuance to maybe challenge a little bit there
is not create wealth, make money, because I don’t think we’re all wealthier those people over that last 20 years. I think we’re not wealthier time wise, values wise. I think we are working longer and harder for less, but they’re they’re the ones that lost the least basically.
Ryan: Well, I’d
say, I’d say those guys have gained, because they’re the ones that have actually. Got more purchasing power than what they did
before. The people that, the people that
didn’t use debt don’t.
Terry: yeah. That’s right. But, but if I’m, but if I’m comparing that cohort to cohorts that existed before them, they don’t have more.
Ryan: yeah. You’re
talking about gen general population rather than the people that did use debt versus the people that didn’t.
Terry: Yep. me, me using debt in, or me just using money in like the 1980s or the 1970s even, versus me now, like we’ve still got less purchasing power in that sense. Yes, we can buy more Netflix and we can buy more pizzas and that sort of stuff, but we buy less house, we buy less education.
We buy less healthcare. Those are the three things we talked about with Jeff. So,
if we’re comparing apples to apples, I’d say yep. But I don’t think we’re all wealthier.
Ryan: That’s as a general population, and then if you
contrast the people that have used debt but not burnt themselves. Versus the
people that didn’t, in a like forlike basis. People that did, and they used it responsibly, but
were relatively aggressive with it, have a lot more purchasing power now than the ones that didn’t.
it’s why property is such an attractive investment, particularly in Australia because your ability to use debt comfortably is a whole lot greater. the bank’s willingness to lend you money,
your willingness to borrow money, secure it against it, is so much greater than any other asset. Name another asset where you can borrow 95% of the value, to buy it.
Ryan: You can’t. No. And so it’s that effect that kind of plays out. and you go, well, if that remains to be true. So, at a macro perspective, if central banks or governments need to, continue to, new money to pay for their own debts
to inflate away their own debts essentially, then that means that you’re gonna continue to see the price of things go up
relative to the amount of debt that people have. And so
the price of their assets will continue to rise, but their debt will always, hold an amortization schedule to a balance repayments. And it’s the gap that exists between those two, which is equity
Terry: you said before, I think is the, is the best way of explaining it, rather than paying the inflation cost. You’re paying an interest cost and the inflation cost versus the interest cost. The interest cost has been historically a lot less.
and the thing that changed my mind about it after our debate was actually understanding that the way that fiat currency is mined, if you like, the way it comes into the real economy is by the creation of debt.
Terry: It’s banks, commercial banks creating loans. That is how it gets from the banking system into the real economy. So you wanna be at the front of that line as someone who’s holding debt, not at the end of it as someone who’s trying to save.
Terry: And when I understood that, I was the risk is not having debt.
The winners are the dead holders. And it sucks. I hate it. I think it’s stupid. But play the cards that you’re dealt.
Don’t play the game you wanna play. Play the cards that you’re dealt. I think,
Terry: mean we’re ignorant to what could be, and that’s why we’re open to Bitcoin, but. We have to exist.
We have to exist in the world we’re in right now as well.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I think, Jeff, he made the comments around, the risk, nature of borrowing to buy, real estate and how that feels like a risk riskier proposition than what it has before because of, change that can happen. And then as you said, he had that caveat, which is within the short to medium, you could be
better off for it. And it’s very much that, that he’s speaking to. I don’t want to kind of, you know, speak for him. But that’s our take on what he meant by it. And that’s the ultimate question, which is how long is that short to medium term? How long can the, uh, the monetary system stay insolvent?
Before it is no longer
operational is, is the big question.
Terry: Yep. Yeah. And that’s, you don’t know, like, on timelines you can just tell like the length of time people thinking. he thinks very long, and that’s by virtue of what he’s done his whole life. He’s been ahead of the curve. He’s ahead of the curve. He’s ahead of the curve. So right now he’s standing on that burning platform.
He’s looking around going, it’s burning. we’re all like, uh, what ? so I think there’s wisdom in listening to what he’s saying, but also we actually have to navigate the path to get to that platform.
so trying to, trying to leapfrog it or make a bunch of assumptions about what’s happening in between now and then, I think is almost just as dangerous.
Terry: maybe I’m wrong. You can come and correct us.
Ryan: You might need to shoot him a tweet. Ask him
Terry: Shoot him between Yeah.
Ryan: what he thinks.
How long, how
Terry: get him, I’ll get him on. No, I’ll get him on. No.
Terry: Exactly. So yeah, I think it’s important to contextualize his point of view, right? He does. He lives in the future. He’s ahead of time. Um, and it’s just useful to kind of think through that.
And he’s a hundred percent right though, like in terms of, I guess the way history plays out, the way these big changes happen, you move through, I guess an existing game that you’re playing and then we need to reset the rules and play a new game, reset the rules and play. And every time you reset the rules, big, big change happens.
And um, that usually comes when a currency starts to lose. Its, lose its specter. and then you can see that happening right now with, US dollar, right? They just raised their debt ceiling, which means they can issue more bonds, which is basically saying, Hey, we’ve got credit card debt on our credit card debt, on our credit card debt, and we just took out new credit card.
Terry: wanna lend us money, . And uh, and all the other countries around the world are like, uh, if we have to, but we don’t, rather not. So you’ve got like the bricks, countries like Brazil, Russia, India, and China. these countries are now like divesting of the US dollar.
And so what that means is the idea that the US dollar is gonna be the reserve currency in another 20 years is probably farfetched.
Terry: all right. So we’ve contextualized Jeff’s point of view and we’ve definitely kind of acknowledging Jeff lives in the future. His timeframes are quite different to ours. also his needs are pretty different to ours, but it does make sense to listen to somebody who tends to see things pretty clearly.
the big message for me is, all right, yep. The game board that we’re playing on is flawed. but we’ve gotta figure out how to, I guess, how to, to play well on that game board to be able to move to a place or be in a position, to be in a place where we have other choices, don’t we?
Ryan: Yep. A hundred percent. I think, um, it’s good to use him as a beacon of what the future could bring and then you gotta look around and go, right, how do I use that to navigate the sludge that can exist in right in front of us? He does say live in a different system. And while I think that might be possible for him, I find it tricky. I look at it and go, how do I live in a different system? Do I just use only Bitcoin and only, you know, live on decentralized networks like Noster?
And you know, I just find, I just think that if I did that, I’d probably be quite isolated from. You know, the community and the, the ecosystem that I actually live in physically. Um,
and so I find that really hard to kind of navi to, to kind of reconcile. But I also look at it and go, all right, there’s this, there’s change that’s kind of happening over time and I just wanna make sure I’ve got my finger on the pulse with how things can change. But I’m also making the most of where I’m at right now and kind
of, you know, using that to my advantage as well.
Terry: Yeah, there was a point in the conversation where I was like, yep, I get it, but I’ve gotta get fiat to buy Bitcoin . I gotta get it first. , and I’ve gotta make sure I can keep it and I’m making, like, I can be good with that.
Ryan: so I don’t know how to earn Bitcoin. Do you know how to earn Bitcoin?
Terry: uh, I guess you could go and work for a Bitcoin company.
Ryan: they paying
Bitcoin, don’t they? Yeah, true.
Terry: they do.
Yeah. but you know, they’re hard to find at the moment. I mean, it’s not that they’re hard to find, but they’re just, uh, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know anyone that works for a Bitcoin company. Do.
Ryan: Uh, no, I don’t. And,
and you know, if you think about the people you wanna serve, the people we want to serve is obviously you. If you’re listening to this, and, you know, it’s solving a lot of society’s inconveniences and problems that we wanna solve for, you know, you’re not, can’t necessarily earn on that system just yet.
So, you know, things will change, but it’s more just for right now, keeping a finger on that pulse. so yeah, I think there, there are a couple of big, that’s a pretty good summary.
Terry: but the risks of concentration that he called out do go both ways.
They go both ways. So we talked about concentrating your wealth in a fiat system in real estate. And the way people do that, and I would say it actually goes the other way as well, right? The risks of concentrating your wealth in something like Bitcoin is quite high.
One of the most exciting properties of Bitcoin for me is the asymmetry of risk. In return for a small amount of exposure, you can get quite a good return, but as you increase your exposure, you actually, you kind of lose a little bit of that property.
so the risk reward profile starts to change. Now, it absolutely has to work. If you’re a hundred percent Bitcoin, it has to work . You know what I mean? So in a time where like, all bets are off for me, you wanna be. I mean, Ray Dalio’s pretty good for this. He’s like, you’ll be as diversified as you possibly can.
It’s bridge a risk as much as possible, because anyone who says they know exactly how it’s gonna play out is just not just lying. and maybe on a long enough timeframe you can. Um, but, we’ve got to manage to build our wealth now. it’s not a case of like Yeah, monopoly and just see how we go.
Ryan: there’s real world consequences to getting it wrong.
Terry: yeah. And I’m not suggesting, I’m not suggesting Jeff was making light of that. It’s more, um, I guess how we kind of think through it.
Ryan: Really good points, really good, you know, really valuable in terms of, navigating what’s to come. What would you take from that conversation in terms of guidance? How would you use that to inform the decisions you make? I know you asked this directly to, Jeff in that, in that conversation, and it was probably didn’t quite get to the layer that we would’ve liked to, but may maybe we’ll get him again at some point. but for us, how do you see that in terms of what guidance should we be giving people? I’ve got a couple of ideas. Let’s start with yours there.
Terry: I think just as a, almost like as a mindset, uh, like I think about, Serena Williams at the, at the back of a court,
on the balls of her feet in an open stance, ready for ready to move, ready to be, you know, in any position possible. Trying to be in a position where you can actually, I guess I can move forward there.
I can move back there. I think agility in times of change is the thing.
It is the, is the thing. So anything that makes you less agile and more fixed in a time where, The ground is shifting, is at risk, and, and that includes Bitcoin. so for me, I kind of go, cool, how do I stay in as open stance as possible?
And uh, if I thought about like a number one principle, spread my exposure, but also think outside the box, which is where Bitcoin fits in, right? Most people aren’t thinking about Bitcoin as a part of their wealth strategy at all. The reason we are open to it is because we do recognize it as a time of change, and we think as a technology it might have a lot to say over what, how this change kind of plays out.
So yeah, that’s why, that’s kind of why we’re open to it, but we’re not overly indexing on that either because that becomes a risk in and of itself, doesn’t it?
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. And so you’re kind of moving away from the risks that exist with the flaws that ex with, with the existing way of working, the way that things work into a new way of working that is unknown and unproven. And so the key thing is there’s no such thing as risk free. It’s just about what risk is worth bearing. And like you said, which one has the most promise of, creating the most benefit from that element of risk. and so it is tough. And that’s why spread your exposure is such an important principle to, to work off. cuz no one person can know.
Terry: Yeah, and I think the key thing as well is like, don’t save in cash for any longer than you absolutely have to. And don’t keep any more cash than you absolutely have to because that is a promise that is continually not kept and it hasn’t been kept for 30 years.
So if you think that you’re gonna win in this system as a saver, it just, unfortunately, I would love, I would love for it to be the case, but even if you think you’re winning right now because you’re getting a four or 5% interest rate, consider the difference between four or 5% on your interest at a six or 7% inflation rate and realize that you’re actually going backwards by two or 3% in purchasing power every year.
So it actually, your real interest rate is negative two or 3%. Don’t actually look at the raw number. Look at the difference between actual inflation and once you’re actually getting for interest, you’re not winning.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s c
Ryan: asset inflation. You know, we don’t even know what the numbers are at that at the moment. So the house that you wanna buy in the future, is it moving by more than four or 5%? That’s the the question that comes with that too.
so that’s a good one. So first one is spread your exposure and think outside the box.
Terry: Yep. And just to add to that as well, for me, what I’m looking to is get my money outta cash. I of a fiat currency cash. And I want to get it into something that’s hard or harder to create or make or get than cash.
which is, you know, real estate’s a part of that. Bitcoins are part of that. Things that are hard. Things that are hard, right? That’s why people at times like this, they buy, uh, they buy art because there’s only so many Picassos. So to store your value in a Picasso, it’s actually, the, the reasoning is, well, they’re not printing Picassos, um, people, people like Picassos.
So people are probably gonna like Picassos in the future. you know, it sounds bizarre, but it’s actually smarter than keeping all that money in cash.
Ryan: Yep, yep. Or into something that is being productive, something that is, you know, helping. Um, People solve problem and being able to profit from that problem being solved by people or people.
okay, that’s good. The second one I’d add to this is, um, you comes from the, from Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon.
Um, you call it the Bezos principle, which is use what is changing the capitalize on what doesn’t. And so, you know, obviously leaning into AI here, as you know, this, this kind of, big advance that exists in technology and, uh, you know, the extension of third arm for a lot of people in terms of what they’re capable of, um, the problems they can solve. And you and I are big explorers of new tech. I wouldn’t say there’d be a month that goes by where we don’t go check out this tool or check out that tool. GPT is obviously a massive one where, you know, we’re using that for probably, uh, I dunno, I’m probably spending at least 20 minutes a day using it at some, in some way at the moment. Um, you know, notion is another tool that, you know, we introduced to us 18 months ago and now we built our old, our whole business framework upon it. And, you know, there’s a bunch of other tools and we’re always kind of exploring these new tools as a way to, do more with less. And
the more that you can kind of bring those in, I guess one of the biggest things I’ve learned is, it’s not always necessarily about knowing more. But being able to solve more, solve for more, in the sense that sometimes you can have, one person can do a lot, you know, you could have a, a person that can write code and build all this amazing shit, or someone might know how to use a tool that already does that.
Ryan: And the end result is, can you get a better result quicker? Or do more quicker? And that person will be rewarded more so cuz they actually solved the problem.
Ryan: And so you always want to come back to what problems actually exist. Uh, I said before, you know, society’s problems or society’s inconveniences and it’s, and it’s basically just going, what do people want, what do people need? And how can you use tools to be able to solve those in new and better ways? And the great thing is that’s getting easier and easier for the average Joe Blow to be able to do it. Specialized knowledge is being shared at a rapid rate, and I think that some of the most valuable people that exist in the market right now are those people that know how to use new tools and introduce ’em to businesses that have old ways of working to massively bring them into the, you know, you think about bringing into the digital age.
We’re talking about law firms before this. You think about, law firms that went from dealing in paper documents, in filing cabinets, and then the ones that were able to transition into a digital world where it was all, you know, on computer. Maybe they exist, maybe they don’t. I don’t know. but you could imagine the efficiencies that exist in one versus the other and the people that can introduce new tech, introduce new tools to be able to bring old businesses, old ways of working into a new way to speed everything up are very valuable people in my opinion.
Terry: I know a guy, Tim Jeffries. Shout out to Tim. He’s a good man. he built a business that. Uses notion, which is the tool that we talked about before,
to basically take law firms from the analog world into the digital world,
into that digital age. And he basically goes in and creates a whole architecture, gets them to design it out, sketch it out, and then he builds the whole thing in notion.
and then he trains them up on how to use it and then kind of manages it as they kind of go. He’s built a whole business around that. He’s one guy and he’s the guy who actually, I, I actually got across notion from, cause he started talking about it and I was like, what’s he talking about? This notion thing.
I went and had a look at it, got completely overwhelmed and I was like, fuck I, I don’t know what that thing is. then come back to it, about six months later had another look and just, we were at a stage in our business where a couple of use cases made, made a bit more sense. And then we had this other guy, Stu, who was one of our members, shout out to Stu, who was already using it, and then he shared his workspace with us and start, things started to kind of click, right.
But the reason I tell that story is because here’s a guy who is not a lawyer. Never has been, is a tech geek, got across a tech tool, started to think about real ways to fix it, fixed it with a couple of his friends, got a few referrals, now has a business. Tim works as many days as he wants, earns as much as he wants.
He just, he’s fine. He’s absolutely fine. He’s built wealth for himself, wealth for his family, just by virtue of doing that. So he was kind of moving into this new frontier, brave enough to do it, and then just got his hands dirty, solving problems for, for real people that he knew. I think that’s a great example, right?
Law firms notoriously bad at moving into like with the times very traditional in that sense. Brings a new tool to an old problem, bang, solved.
Terry: but it’s worth kind of very quickly going through that Bezos principle, right? Cuz it’s one thing to say use what’s changing to capitalize and what doesn’t.
But think about what Amazon did. It understood that technology was changing the way we use information, distribution systems, things like that. and it is basically like, well the industry that is book selling is has multiple layers, many middlemen and all those people can be replaced cuz they’re shuffling papers.
I can replace them with tools. I don’t have to hold inventory. I can actually take orders and I can collect the cash before I go and buy the books. And so we built a cash generating machine that he then just kind of kept growing and growing and growing. The thing that changed was technology and what it could do to solve the problem of give me the right book.
The thing that didn’t change was people wanted good book recommendations. People wanted the best books, they wanted ’em sooner. They didn’t wanna have to do any work for it and they wanted em cheaper. So he had buying power cuz he had volume. He had, he had the time saving because he was basically bringing it to your door.
and then he had like the information sorting where he is creating this huge database. You know, Amazon recommends this. I remember when I started getting those recommendations, it was like magic. Cause I’d start reading the reviews. I’m like, this is great. Absolutely I’m gonna buy that book. So I’m buying more and more and more.
So he picked up on this kind of thing. That doesn’t change. I want a good book of recommendation and I wanna not do any work. That’s what doesn’t change. And he used a new technology, which is the internet to solve it. So it, you don’t have to be Jeff Bezos, but the point stands like Timmy Jeffries is doing it with one tool called Notion. He didn’t build notion, he just learnt it faster than anybody else. And then built a reputation, didn’t he?
Ryan: yeah, yeah. And sometimes it’s not even faster than everybody else. It’s just faster than a certain group of people
Terry: Faster than the lawyers.
Ryan: yeah. Well, what an op opportunity for people. Cause you don’t necessarily need to go, you know, there’s all these new AI tools getting built, doing all these weird and wonderful things. you don’t need to be a tech gee, and go build one of those, a new use case. It might just be that you are the one that gets really good at finding the right fit for a tool to the use case and then bringing that to the people that need it most. And
like, like Tim Jeffries, like you mentioned, um, I love that you called him a tech geek.
Hope he takes that. Well,
Terry: you would love that. Don’t
Terry: that . But, you know, so Jeff, Jeff talked about Noster on there, and I, you know, I’d played around on it, but I spent a weekend on it. And it is profound to understand that the shift that, that is taking in a, in a, in a sense of like, You are building a platform, but it’s based on completely different rules and it’s a, it’s a network effect that changes things.
So you know, for, like we talked about LinkedIn, we talked about Twitter and YouTube and that kind of thing. You got massively rewarded if you were an early adopter there. Massively rewarded then. But as it got more and more popular, then you have to use algorithms and that means that you have to filter out information.
And now the people that had already amassed followings got to kind of, they kind of got to level right up and go along for the rising tide. But everybody else who came later, you now get punished. You’re actually getting punished. And then now all the productivity gains and all the benefits are flowing through to the people who own that platform, not the users anymore.
Whereas with something like North Star, it really is profound to really think it through and go, hang on. So I just spun up this app. I downloaded this app called Damas. It’s on this protocol called, no, I know those words are different and weird, but just think of it like another Twitter. but the difference is it’s not a centralized database.
It’s actually a bunch of different done, bunch of different servers or relays they call ’em, and all your information is housed on multiple at once. So if one of them shuts you down, you’ve got multiple others. So you can’t necessarily be shut down. So you think, what’s the benefit of that? Well, one of ’em is freedom of speech and everybody talks about that.
The other one of them is that, if I don’t like what Dharma is doing, the app that I’m using, they call it a client. If I don’t like one client, I take my keys, I take my password basically, and I take my username. They call it public key, private key. I take that and I drop it into a completely different app or another client, which is what they call it, and I take all my information.
I take all my users, everyone who’s in my dms, everyone I’m following, all that stuff pops up there. So that changes. That changes the dynamic
I’m right in thinking that you take with you like the threads of conversation if people have
Terry: absolutely everything.
Ryan: People liked your posts, left
messages, all that. You basically just pick it all up and just move it, like you’d
move it from Facebook and sit it on uh, MySpace,
Ryan: But that logic, which is like now
Facebook has to fight for your business and make things better for you as opposed to them hold the control. Cuz you have the ability to pick it up and say, no, not you anymore. I’m gonna take it across to MySpace. A different client. Yeah.
Terry: yeah. So that business model will change dramatically, right? Cuz you are now, right? Now you are Facebook’s product, you are Twitter’s product, you are LinkedIn’s product, and you are being monetized,
Terry: right? And so first and foremost, you are the product. Whereas in the other situation, you are the user and you’re in control.
You have all the bargaining power, they work for you. So it’s gonna change the way things are built and developed and it’s gonna, I think it’s gonna be very, very interesting. So spending time there, just to understand how that paradigm shifts happening and what it’s going to mean. Because think about this, right, Joe Rogan.
Okay, Joe Rogan on YouTube. Joe Rogan can, can get shut down from YouTube. He says the wrong thing speaks to the wrong person gets canceled. They tried. right now, that’s a huge risk to Joe Rogan with his platform. Think about how many millions of people that he’s accumulated as people that follow and listen to him.
Okay, now you can eliminate that risk. If you build the right platform and it’s on a strong enough base, now you can absolutely eliminate that risk for someone like Joe Rogan. Tell me, he’s not gonna take that a hundred percent. He is every day of the week. Cuz as a business person, you’re taking me from a place of vulnerability to a place of security. A hundred percent. I want that.
Ryan: And you need
there to be like four or five, 10 different platforms that are kind of fighting for your business, like a competitive, app base or like you said, client base like Facebook’s, MySpace, you know, all these different platforms, Yama, they’re all kind of fighting for your business. And so there’s a
competitive marketplace that exists there that kills the risk ultimately, isn’t it? Because,
you know, well there are other, other options that exist, whereas that probably
doesn’t exist right now, but that I assume is being built that will become
Terry: And what you said is really important. You said fighting for your business.
Fighting for your loyalty. Right now they’re fighting for our attention cuz our attention is the commodity. It’s being pumped and drilled and sold is our attention. So we’re being, basically, our nervous systems are being hacked.
So show me a platform that doesn’t hack my nervous system, that isn’t trying to make me addicted, that doesn’t, it isn’t a Skinner box or a poke machine that’s making me come back and back and back to it. That actually gives me the right conversations, that gives me the right interactions. And we’ll see if there’s a market for that.
You know, we don’t actually get to see that right now cause all these business models are basically, I need to sell your attention to, to, to fund this thing. But other business models are gonna come up and, you know, the, the, this is where we get to the positive stuff, right? This is where Jeff’s saying, There’s lots of problems with this change.
There’s gonna be lots of problems, which means there’s lots of opportunities and there’s lots of ways for you to go and solve those problems and do very well for yourself in the process. And it’s on the frontiers of this change where those problems are most profitable and it’s only the brave that actually go to those frontiers and find out, and everybody else waits until it’s already proven and everybody else turns around and says, geez, it would’ve been good to be early
So he is like, here’s your chance,
here’s your chance right now to get busy. Getting onto the frontier of something doesn’t have to be nasta, but the point stands like, get out on the frontiers of whatever your field is. If you’re a lawyer, get right out on the frontier. Find out what people at the bleeding edge are doing.
Find out what people in adjacent industries are doing from you. How are they using technology? And how could you use that technology to solve problems that exist in your industry that people aren’t even looking at yet?
Terry: Now you become very valuable. Now you become hard to how to compare against so hard to, hard to compete against. That that, that to me is the sort of the Chico, isn’t it?
Ryan: Yeah, and I think you’re right. It’s optimistic on an individual front, but also on a societal front, which is. We talked about the issues that exist within the, you know, monetary system, and there’s a new way that’s kind of evolved because of that, and there’s technology that’s advanced that could solve that problem.
Now we’re talking about how our attention gets harvested by, um, you know, all these big players that exist in the, in the market, you know, Facebook’s, you know, YouTube, these types. and now there’s this new way of working that’s evolved in, that’s evolved with no.
And so there’s all this advancement that’s already kind of underway and providing a solution to the problems that already exist at that really societal level, which helps me stay optimistic about where things are going because it’s like, yeah. There’s some real big problems that exist, but the solutions that are coming to life because of those problems are bloody exciting to see how life could be better and different in the future. Would you agree?
Terry: Yeah, we talked about, Africa, Bitcoin mining in Africa, bringing energy to remote villages
cuz it makes, it makes, uh, renewable energy projects more feasible faster. And that’s increasing adoption and increasing uptake there. Then you see the Lightning network. And again, so look, here’s a couple of things just to kind of signpost it for you.
Get Google Noster, find out what’s happening right there. Google the Lightning network, read what Lynn Alden’s talking about it. Understand Bitcoin cuz it is another technology. There could be quite , quite an interesting solution to some of many of society’s problems. Understand, like, just be curious.
That’s what Jeff Bezos was talking about before you write something off, get out on the front here. You can’t expect, and this is the big thing, right? You can’t expect that what has, what has been the case is what will be the case. Like looking at what has been and just projecting in the future.
Everything always changes all the time. That’s the only thing you can always bet on. And so becoming more comfortable in that change and sort of, being able to, I guess, lean into that discomfort, like push past it and actually realize there’s massive opportunities here.
It always is the advantage. There’s one more thing I wanna talk about in terms of like guidance from this. and it comes down to a quote that I mentioned in the episode and I’ve been thinking about it ever since. Herman Simon is the Nobel Peace Prize winner, and he talked about how an abundance in one thing creates a scarcity in another.
So we said, an abundance of information creates a scarcity of attention.
Now that’s just kind of what we’ve been dealing with with the internet, right? Which is now why attention’s so valuable. And now all these business models have popped up, uh, to sort of monetize attention.
The, the internet democratize information. Now we have a poverty of attention. The businesses that have done the best have been the fit ones who’ve figured out how to monetize that. Now let’s think about AI for a second, cuz this is about ai. AI is going to create an abundance of interactions with machines, which is going to create a relative scarcity of interactions with humans.
Terry: And so, For me, I think the opportunity there is to become more human, become better at human interactions. Don’t try to compete with a machine, try to become more human. So maybe, maybe I’m wrong about this, but my sense is that the soft skills, the humans are human skills that people have under invested in are gonna become even more important.
Because when you’re in actually in a real interaction with a person, the premium that’s gonna be placed on that interaction is gonna be much higher. And it’s not even just in your interactions with people. It’s in the way you build tools. Why has Apple been so good for so long?
It’s because they’re deep understanding of people and the way they’ve designed for humans.
Terry: not tech people. Not tech people, and so I think the more human you become, the more you can pick, pick up on that, and sort of develop those skills. Uh, the empathy that you require to have really good interactions. The empathy that you require to design really good solutions, that’s gonna be even more important than it ever was now, because your interaction with machines is gonna, it’s just gonna create a scarcity of that, isn’t it?
Ryan: Yeah, couldn’t agree more. I think, you know, empathy is ultimately the thing that makes you understand the pains for people. And the more empathetic you can be, the more you can seek to know why people are feeling, how they’re feeling is the key that unlocks determining what steps they can take or you can help them take to overcome it. And that’s where tools come to life. You know, so much
of what we do with the, with, um, the Cashflow code, mentorship with tools we’ve created is very much just being like, we can see there’s discomfort here,
understanding that problem as best we possibly can, and then going, how can we build a tool that helps solve that problem? How can we take them out of that discomfort into a place of ease? As quickly as we possibly can. And so, you know, that again, is a real life example of yes, you still wanna build tools so you can build leverage and, you know, do more with less and not always just be tied to serving the people in your direct uh, proximity. But that empathy, like you said, is still being able to understand the people so well, so that you know what to build with the technology that comes to life. Yeah,
Terry: Yeah. People aren’t gonna change. People are still people. People wanna do business with people. People wanna interact with people. The thing that is changing is what people are interacting with.
Ryan: we’ve all got problems. We’re all
got problems. We’ve got lots of them.
Terry: I’ve got so
Ryan: We’re all messed up. We’re all fucked up.
Terry: Well think about this, right? Just think about it from a, like Sam Altman, who’s the OpenAI?
The guy who founded OpenAI, the ceo, the guy who you see on the news and the interviews and all that sort of stuff.
Terry: Sam Altman is one of the people who funded the biggest universal basic income study ever.
Terry: Now gives you a window into his thinking. If you are the one developing the new technology and now you’re studying universal basic income under like think, why is that happening?
Is it because Sam realizes that what this is about to do is democratize knowledge, which is gonna put a lot to people outta work. And so we need to think about the next step on the second, third order consequences of that. And we need to understand how to think through that problem really well. Now, if you can see where that’s going, you can see that a big problem is going to be a lot of people being displaced relatively quickly.
That’s a huge problem, which also in Jeff Booth’s words, is a huge opportunity. Maybe you could use technology to help figure out how to retrain people quicker.
Terry: How could you do that? How could you use AI to do that? , um, build a tool. It’s like, cool, you lost your job doing that. I can get you up and going up to this speed in six months.
Do you wanna do it? Absolutely, I do. I wanna get out of this. I wanna get into my next thing. I don’t wanna actually have to figure this whole thing out for myself. Give me the best teacher to teach me these best things right now. I’m gonna be up to speed in less than, you know, less than six months. same thing.
There’s your opportunity. That problem is an opportunity. So I guess it’s just that sort of, uh, flipping that frame, isn’t it? Uh, instead of like focusing on the problem going, that problem isn’t a problem, it’s an opportunity.
Ryan: Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Geez, I think we’ve come up with a few business ideas.
Track 1: I know I’ve, I wrote a few down
Ryan: Oh, someone’s gonna beat it to beat us to it now.
Track 1: Hopefully though, hopefully if you’re listening you like, we kind of wanna just talk through like how we’re kind of thinking about it. and what I would encourage you to do is to go, okay, you know, that lawyer example, maybe I’m not a lawyer, but, but how, how would that relate to me? Like where do I see the problems in my realm?
and how do I know that there are actually problems that I can validate those? And then what kind of tools and technology, uh, new things, what new things, new ways of working. It doesn’t even have to be technology, just new ways of working, new things you can bring to that problem. always, always creates opportunities.
Ryan: Yep. Massively. And we’re all gonna take different meaning from that conversation with Jeff. and this is just an insight into how we have drawn from that and kind of, um, I guess added our own flavor to it. So hopefully you’ve enjoyed kind of just this little bit of a loose exploration of ideas. We, uh, we sat down, we kind of started to sketch something out and we’re just like, this is hard. It’s kind of a hard one to, uh, add structure to. So let’s just press record and see where we go. And so hopefully this random walk down, uh, idea Street is, uh, okay, you’ve enjoyed this spec exploration. Um, and now you get an insight into when Terry gives me a call and I know he is on for a chat.
Tends to go for an hour and maybe two hours. And these are the kinds of conversations that we have. and I walk away a little bit, thirsty and ready for a Panadol. Um, but you know, always a little bit more informed, which is good. I dunno where else to take it.
And if you’ve got. More to add to this conversation, we’d love to see you jump into the, the podcast immunity, um, in through the show notes. Join us there, have the conversation. We want to even just hear from you in terms of the ideas or questions that have come up throughout this conversation love to see you jump in there and just share some ideas around how you think you can use new technology, new tools, new ways of working to, um, you know, be more valuable in, in whatever you’re doing. And, you know, we always enjoy that kind of shark tank thinking and conversation, so throw ’em up.
We’d love to bounce off you with that. And so that’s it for this one. Uh, what’s coming up next?
Terry: We are, we’ve got a bit of a series cooking. It’s not quite ready to go yet.
Uh, but there is a conversation that I wanna share, with you the listener, um, which I think we might even do another one of these reactions to, because it’s another super interesting conversation. Jonathan B is the guy’s name,
and we mentioned this concept of mimesis in our Hacking Money Habits series. And, uh, we kind of talked through that at like an intro level. Jonathan B is probably with the world’s.
Most preeminent expert I would say on it at the moment. His body of work is probably unparalleled next to Gerard, who’s now dead. so he was probably the best guy to ask and kind of delve into this concept of esis. So we wanted to go a little bit deeper on that. We had a good chat. Uh, and I reckon that’s another one that, um, that you and I can riff off, uh, afterwards.
So I’m looking forward to sharing that episode. Yeah,
Ryan: is one where you just wanna chat about it for hours. It’s, uh, it’s uh, you become more enlightened about life every time you do. So it’s a good one. Looking forward to it.
Terry: we’ll, um, we’ll decode your proposal mate. We’ll go through step by step
Ryan: That might, that might need decoding. I’m still trying to make sense of it. Well, we live with the choices we make anyway. See in the next one?